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Port-au-Prince.– While millions of Haitians go hungry, containers full of food are stacking up in the nation's ports because of government red tape –leaving tons of beans, rice and other staples to rot under a sweltering sun or be devoured by vermin.

A government attempt to clean up a corrupt port system that has helped make Haiti a major conduit for Colombian cocaine has added new layers of bureaucracy –and led to backlogs so severe they are being felt 600 miles away in Miami, where cargo shipments to Haiti have ground almost to a standstill.

The problems are depriving desperate people of donated food. Some are so poor they are forced to eat cookies made of dirt, salt and vegetable oil to satisfy their hunger.

An Associated Press investigation found the situation is most severe in Cap-Haitien, Haiti's second-largest city. One recent afternoon, garbage men shoveled a pile of rotting pinto beans that had turned gray and crumbled to dust as cockroaches and beetles scurried about.

The men had found the putrid cargo by following a stench through stacked shipping containers to one holding 40,000 pounds of beans. It had been in port since November.

"So many times, by the time (the food) gets out of customs it's expired and we're forced to burn it," said Susie Scott Krabacher, whose Colorado-based Mercy and Sharing Foundation has worked in Haiti for 14 years. "The food is there. It is available. It just can't get to the people."

Though it is unclear how much of Haiti's food supply is tied up in the port delays, the effects could be serious. Haiti imports about 75 percent of its food supply, according to the U.S. Department of Agriculture. And there is little room for error in a country where the U.N. Food and Agriculture Organization reported that almost half the population was undernourished in 2002.

The U.N. World Food Program and large-scale U.S. rice growers say they have been able to get their food into Haiti by hiring local agents to handle bureaucratic procedures. But smaller charities, merchants and private citizens have often been forced by the delays to throw away containers of food or pay exorbitant fees.

The problems stem in part from efforts to clean up a port system the World Bank recently ranked as the second-worst in the region, ahead of only Guyana.

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COMMENTS
121 comment(s)
Written by: gmiller261, 9 Mar 2008 12:46 PM
From: United States
This kind of crap has been going on for 100 years. You would think that the 1st world countries would mandate a team of people (with locals) to distribute the food.

Is it that hard not to be corrupt about peoples lives?

‘Red’ tape. Come on ‘spin’ doctors, it is pure unadulterated corruption and stupidity.
Written by: BLANCO, 9 Mar 2008 12:48 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Something familiar here!!!!! even in the midst of hunger...the greedy who don't suffer want their guord of flesh... and the UN why are they not in charge of the ports and customs
Written by: JRRubirosa, 9 Mar 2008 1:18 PM
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
Like always "Haitians" showing the rest of the planet why They are holding the positivon of being so backwards, lack of being pro active and trying to move on and develop their country.

"Josean, Perception, Hyckinshin and all Haitians that hate Dominican Republic, try to post your constructive opinions here and help your needy country
Written by: gmiller261, 9 Mar 2008 1:19 PM
From: United States
Because the United Nations should be disbanded and all delegates sent home, where they would have to actually work for a living.

And this kind of crap does not embarrass anyone, imagine the degree of shameless mentality that would take.
Written by: Lautaro, 9 Mar 2008 3:54 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Oh please, Rubirrosa, our country can´t talk about this issue with airs of superiority, because, don´t you remember that the dominican gov. faced a related scandal on the issue of the international help to the people that was hit by hurricane George? This issue is fairly common on every Thirld World country with corrupt governmental classes like ours, so I don´t see the reason why you´re making such a big deal out this.
Written by: HAYkickyouintheSHIN, 9 Mar 2008 8:02 PM
From: Haiti
Rubirosa really loves us deep down inside.
Written by: JRRubirosa, 9 Mar 2008 8:54 PM
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
Lautaro: stop being a "Haitian" lover please..................


Haitians are going backwards, and still hate us for being pro active.............
Written by: dreadlocks, 10 Mar 2008 9:53 AM
From: United States
Mr Lautaro, why is it that a man of your colossal intellect wastes his effort commenting on the postings of Rubirosa? after all, is this not the man who, in the year 2008, refers to Spain as the motherland?¨ clearly a believer in caucasian supremacy, he rhapsodises over the greatness of Spain, the laughing stock of Europe, but never misses an opportunity to flagellate Haiti. bigotry is an emotional condition which cannot be cured by reasoning, so why waste your time?
Written by: OCristoRedentor, 10 Mar 2008 10:01 AM
From: Brazil
Ineffectiveness depletes the soul of the nourishment in which it needs to survive. This ineffectiveness is soley that of the Haitian Legislature and the people within the governing body of this "potentionally" great nation. When Haitians get together and truly work as a team, things will get done, and people will eat. The main person which can facilitate this is Mr. Rene Garcia Preval. Im watching and waiting.

-"O Cristo Redentor"
Written by: jemesouviens1804, 10 Mar 2008 11:12 AM
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
Well, I hope the Haitians can stop all this bulls*** and do something about this. As far as Rubirosa goes, I have a feeling that if a person asked him, "would you rather eat dirt cookies and live in object poverty or would you rather die", the idiot would pick death.
Written by: Lautaro, 10 Mar 2008 11:59 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Maybe it's because of my stubborn attachment to Christ teachings, mr. dreadlocks (by the way, you've been sorely missed on these forums). I remember a biblical teaching that goes by: "If you were a shepperd with 100 sheeps under your care, and suddenly one of them goes missing, would you not do everything on your power to rescue that lost sheep, notwithstanding having the other 99 secure under your care"? Ignorance, mr. dread, is a dangerous disease that have been devastating our countries for quite some time, so why allow it to continue to have a free hand, while having the power to stop it? As the celebrated british politician Edmund Burke once said: "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil, is for good men to do nothing".
Written by: amoree, 10 Mar 2008 12:55 PM
From: United States
Education, Education, Education.. There must be more education for any help to make a dent in the problem....
Written by: JabaoHaitian, 10 Mar 2008 1:41 PM
From: Haiti
JR, If you hate haitians so much, why don't you find one and tell him to his face how you feel and handle the situation one haitian at a time. I am really concerned about you my friend. Your hatred for haitians goes beyond propaganda miseducation. What did the haitian guy do to you to feel so disgruntle about an entire nation? I have never heard you say anything positive about your neighbors nor have you commented in a manner that is respectful to yourself. I even answered you directly with no critical feedback. I'm worried about you my friend. You are in quote on quote the best developed country in the world and don't use it to your advantage. Where did this hatred began. Brooklyn,Bronx,Aquel La'o, Cristo Rey? Kuentame pana. K lo K.
Written by: ToussaintHaiti, 10 Mar 2008 2:12 PM
From: Haiti
You mean to tell me there's FOOD inside all of those containers... And here I was thinking that they were full of used clothing.... Hol* Sh*t, once word of this gets out in Ctié Soleil there'll be a tsunami of hungry mouths that no gate can hold back. There won't be a scrap of food left even between the cracks.

As I am typing this, only have to look out my window and see children begging for food.
Written by: JRodriguez, 10 Mar 2008 2:52 PM
From: United States
Is there a number that i can call to place a complaint or a plan of action for this..this freaking bull**** ??!! i mean wtf seriously how is it that you can let people go hungry! im willing to lead a group of people arm them and freakin over run the port and pass out the food damn this really got me pissed
Written by: HAYkickyouintheSHIN, 10 Mar 2008 2:52 PM
From: Haiti
Its alright Rubirosa. Your idiotic bigotry actually provides some comic relief in the sense that your comments sound as if they originated from a white supremacist "aryan"-type skinhead with a wannabe obsession for the (as dread stated) laughingstock of Western Europe: Spain. Board your windows and lock the doors. The Haitians are coming lol.
Written by: BLANCO, 10 Mar 2008 4:08 PM
From: Dominican Republic
get pissed jr... i'd love to join you...need help call guy phillipe. the dea wanted him but he is still in haiti.....
Written by: dreadlocks, 11 Mar 2008 10:07 AM
From: United States
thanks for responding, Mr Lautaro. i knew the answer all along; i just wanted to hear it from you. i hope you understand that i am mesmerised by a person who can refer to his former colonial exploiters and oppressors as the beautiful motheland, who has our backs. yes, they have your back Rubirosa, and the knife is in it! you keep referring to how much they do for this country, which is hilarity at best. they have stolen more from the world than any other country, and given nothing in return. look at the mess in all of latin america. at least the british left behind some functioning states. and do not compare what they do with the united states. say what you will about america, but whenever emergencies arise, they are here first, giving their best to alleviate suffering. the spaniards watch events on tv!!
Written by: Lautaro, 11 Mar 2008 11:09 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
My best guess, mr. dreadlocks, is that he is a former Fenosa employee that had to run away, you know, after that company stole the heck out of this country with their infamous "Acuerdo de Madrid", which established that our country have to pay them for fifteen years for all their trouble, when the honorable thing for the gov. would have been to sue their arses up into the next century. The electrical bills when the energy corporations were under their thumb were simply genocidal!!
Written by: antonioj, 11 Mar 2008 12:48 PM
From: Canada, home safe
JRRubirosa

Your comment is wrong were do you get the facts that Haitians hate Dominicans !! Do I hate Dominicans ? the answer is NO and there are millions Haitians like me, I will tend to believe the reverse perhaps may be true sometimes.
Written by: Perez, 11 Mar 2008 3:49 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Bravo! Lautaro and Dreadlocks!! well said!. Some of our paisanos needs to come down from cloud 9!
Written by: Docpeters, 11 Mar 2008 3:56 PM
From: United States Virgin Islands
The biggest problem with Haiti is corruption. We wanted to build an hospital in a community where there was none. Mind you, our organization is non-profit. However, the mayor and his cronies blocked the project. They were asking for bribes. In order to get the project through, they wanted thousands of dollars for their pockets. Even in the ports. We wanted to bring medical equipment in; everyone had their hands out looking for bribe money. There are a lot of rich Haitians in Haiti that do not want the country to prosper. They like the chaos because this is how they can make money. Do you know that there are a lot of people with bigger and better mansions than the Dominican Republic in Haiti? The majority made their money legally. But there is that small minority making money through corruption and the drug trade. Those people are very selfish. They would rather see a child eat dirt cookies and die rather than to help their community, as long as they can ride in Hummers.
Written by: Docpeters, 11 Mar 2008 4:03 PM
From: United States Virgin Islands
I believe that for almost 20 years, Haiti has not received substantial international aid. A lot of countries have "pledge" (promess) to give aid but never actually gave. For example Canada has pledge to give 555 million dollars but never did. A lot of countries do not see Haiti as a priority. However, a lot of Haitians are eating mud cookies in order not starve to death. This is not happening in Africa. It is happening a couple of hours away from Miami. Haitians should not wait for handouts. They will wait forever. The problem can be solved internally. The Archbishop of Miami, the Reverend Favarola mentions in his letter to President Bush that the Haitian diaspora send close to 2 Billion dollars to their loved ones anually via money transfer (e.g., Western Union). Well, the money transfer is the solution to fix Haiti. The Haitian goverment should pass a law reserving 10% of the money sent for projects in Haiti. The plan I have in mind is as follows: (See next comment)
Written by: Docpeters, 11 Mar 2008 4:05 PM
From: United States Virgin Islands
The Haitian diaspora gives 2 billion dollars per year to their relatives for survival (through money transfers, e.g., Western Union). While this is good, it is only a temporary relief. Month after month you still have to send money to your relatives. Why not teach them how to fish instead of giving them the fish! A concrete solution for Haiti is to start small by using one of the 5 smalls islands that it owns.

For example Tortuga island can be prepared for development. For the size of Tortuga, all you would need is about 300 million dollars. You would need 7 things. 1) Roads 2) Water 3) Electricity 4) Sea Port 5) Airport 6) Trustworthy Police Force (Security) 7) Marketing plan.

You would then need to market the island to multi-national companies and rich Haitians to come and open resorts, hotels, restaurants etc...
It would be good to invite more airlines to enter Haiti's market. Also invite more hotel chains (e.g, Hilton) to enter the country. (Continue Next Comment)
Written by: Docpeters, 11 Mar 2008 4:11 PM
From: United States Virgin Islands
The solution to fix Haiti is to concentrate and develop one small area like Tortuga and invite the international community to invest into tourism. You would not sell the land to companies but lease them. You would tax the companies. Local employment would be created and the taxes and tourism profits would help the rest of Haiti.

Once you have enough money, you can do the same for the other 4 islands including (Navasa or Ile a Vache also named Port-Morgan, see http://www.port-morgan.com/ . See, http://www.ilelatortue.com for Tortuga's website. I also feel that it is a priority that the Preval administration put an Army/Police security presence on the islands of Navasa, Tortuga, Port-Morgan, Gonave and Les Cayemites. Also, Haiti needs to secure their land in case other countries try to steal it from them. (Next Comment)
Written by: Docpeters, 11 Mar 2008 4:14 PM
From: United States Virgin Islands
Port-Morgan can be used as Eco-Tourism for its natural flora and beauty. Why not take this plan I suggest and put it into action. Recommend the Tortuga plan to the Haitians living abroad. If Haitians truly love their country which I think they do because they are sending 2 billion dollars per year to help feed their relatives. Help them think to redirect some of that money into a fund that will help them for the future by teaching them how to fish. If the Haitian diaspora do not agree with taking 10% of the money sent via Western Union; put the plan into law. Sometimes things have to be done by force for the future of a country. Furthermore, open up the ports in Haiti for free trade. This will lower the cost of goods in Haiti and allow free enterprise. This is the way you encourage investors to come in the country and invest agressively. (Continue to Next Comment)
Written by: Docpeters, 11 Mar 2008 4:15 PM
From: United States Virgin Islands
The money for the Tortuga project can be raised easier than you think. The Haitian diaspora is sending 2 billion dollars per year to their relatives in Haiti via primarily from money transfer such as Western Union and CAM. Think! 10% of the money sent can be redirected to a credible organization (e.g., United Nations or NGO) for specifically funding the Tortuga Project. That translates into 200 million dollars per year. For example, someone sends $100 to their love one in Haiti. $10 will be put aside for the Tortuga Project.

The means are already there to force the Haitian diaspora to donate the money. All there is to do is to wake up the Haitian diaspora patriotic duty and make them understand that the Tortuga Project is a concrete solution for the entire country. Whatever organization you choose to manage the money must be strictly accountable for it and report progress in order to avoid corruption. (Continue to Next Comment)
Written by: Docpeters, 11 Mar 2008 4:16 PM
From: United States Virgin Islands
If you do not know anything about Tortuga. It is one of the world's best places for kitesurfing. It is even better than Cabarete, in the Dominican Republic. The beaches are incredible and prestine. All there is to do is to set up a basic infrastructure. I believe that 300 million dollars is sufficient. The rest will be done by investors. It is easy to point out Haiti's problems but you have to be able to come up with concrete solutions and act on it.

P.S. Haiti imports 90% of their food and goods. The Preval administration should look into developing an agricultural plan so that Haiti will not be dependent on imports. This will create employment and move out the peasants turned street merchants living in Port-Au-Prince. They can go to the countryside and farm. Haiti can easily grow rice, beans, coffee, poultry, sugar and export the products. (Continue to Next Comment)
Written by: Docpeters, 11 Mar 2008 4:18 PM
From: United States Virgin Islands
Furthermore, I cannot believe that past and current administrations have not been able to resolve something has simple has moving out the street merchants in downtown Port-Au-Prince. They are creating chaos. You cannot even pass with your car. Everyone is in the middle of the streets selling something. There is garbage everywhere. When a tourist comes to Port-Au-Prince, he/she will be disgusted. The merchants in the middle of the streets problem does not cost a lot of money to resolve. All you have to do is to move them under tents outside of the city in a special zone designated as a "flea market". Then, you have to make the police secure the downtown area so that the street merchants do not come back. Perhaps, I am missing something here but I think that solving the street merchants issue is pretty easy and should not take more than 30 days to fix.
Written by: Docpeters, 11 Mar 2008 4:36 PM
From: United States Virgin Islands
This particular comment is for JRRubirosa:

The Anti-Haitian movement has been around for at least 150 years. But it got worst under ex-presidents Trujillo and Balaguer. Trujillo who's grandmother, ironically was Haitian and black swore he was 100% white Spaniard. He gave the order to murder over 30,000 Haitians and black Dominicans along Haiti/Dominican Republic border in 1937. Trujillo hated being part black. He used to put on a touch of white mascara to hide his African traits. He was trying to whiten the Dominican Republic. Please read the following. Knowing your history will help you become a better person: http://www.ling.upenn.edu/courses....2003/ling001/antihaitianismo.html .

I believe that Haiti and the Dominican Republic should help each other. That is what good neighbors do. May God bless you.
Written by: Docpeters, 11 Mar 2008 4:53 PM
From: United States Virgin Islands
Another idea is for Haiti to stop paying 300 million dollars debt anually to the IMF. Argentina defaulted on their loan of 80 Billion dollars to the IMF in 2001. The default helped their country. They redirected the funds on behalf of internal projects. I am not in favor of not repaying debt but Haiti should do the same because the country has terminal cancer. This 300 million coupled with the 200 million for the money transfer idea would result in 500 million dollars anually that Haiti can invest in projects to develop the country. And, I repeat the they should start small with Tortuga Island.
Written by: Lautaro, 11 Mar 2008 5:32 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Our island should really start getting its act together, because, if we fail to do this, our tourist industry will be swallowed by the Cuban competition, once that island finds itself free from the embargo, that is. The cruel irony of it all is that this would be like history repeating itself all over again, the first time happening when Cuba inherited Haiti´s former place as the sugar darling of the capitalist world. Your plan is a sound one, mr. Docpeters, considering that Tortuga is estrategically placed to receive the different cruise ships coming from Europe and the US. Also, one have to take into account that island´s historical value as the metropolis of piracy in the Caribbean on the XVIIth century, which gives it a plus, specially with europeans.
Written by: antonioj, 11 Mar 2008 5:41 PM
From: Canada, home safe
Docpeters

You must have been reading my excerpt, I have advocate for such approach many times. It's pretty radical but I think it will work
Written by: HAYkickyouintheSHIN, 11 Mar 2008 11:04 PM
From: Haiti
Interesting and intelligent proposal docpeters.
Written by: Docpeters, 12 Mar 2008 10:17 AM
From: United States Virgin Islands
Tortuga is where the Pirates of the Caribbean movie was filmed. Being that it used to be a pirate's island, tourists would love to go there. Haiti has a jewel that it is not exploiting. Haiti should not be a poor place at all. Some say that the Haitian goverment officials are extremely incompetent, lazy, and stupid. No, Haitians are very intelligent. I think that my theory that Haitian officials and people who own companies there are corrupted to the bones is the true problem. Coupled that with a legal system that is not enforcing the laws results in a state of anarchy. Leaving the country in chaos is best for them so that they get money from bribes, not paying taxes, hiring extremely cheap labor and the drug trade. Eating caviar while the poor eat dirt. I believe evil does exist. You would have to have an evil heart allowing your people to suffer. Do you know that there are 5 Billionaire families in Haiti alone? Nowhere else in the caribbean has that many billionaires.
Written by: HAYkickyouintheSHIN, 12 Mar 2008 1:53 PM
From: Haiti
Interesting. I believe the Brandts are included in those 5 families. But maybe I'm wrong.
Written by: Lautaro, 12 Mar 2008 3:06 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Don't forget the Bigios, mr. Shin, which are, in my opinion, the richest of the rich over there (if not over the whole island), due to the fact that their having the ownership of 16 of the state companies.
Written by: HAYkickyouintheSHIN, 12 Mar 2008 3:48 PM
From: Haiti
Yes I know of the Bigios, the very wealthy Jewish-Haitian family that has been involved in industrialist profit in Haiti for a long time now. Gilbert Bigio has a huge guarded home in Petionville. The Bigios I don't believe are bad people but because of their extreme wealth, have been caught up in the cycle of poor against rich. Other Jewish-Haitian families are the Weiners and the Salzmanns. Other wealthy "elite" families in Haiti are the Madsens (Danish-Haitians) , Mevses, and the infamous Apaids (Palestinian-Haitians). Virtually all have had great profitable success within Haitian industries such as cement and textiles and beer-production. Yes Lautaro I believe the Bigios are included in the richest of the rich however I have no idea who is the richest person or family in all of Haiti.
Written by: jemesouviens1804, 12 Mar 2008 8:19 PM
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
Hey Shin, I heard news about the Preval administration has started the construction of a real highway in the country(PAP-Cap Haitien/Jacmel) is this true.
Written by: carbelk99 This user is banned, 15 Mar 2008 11:48 PM
From: United States
Hey Doc peters the Dominicans Blacks are Blacks The Haitians are dak blue.I agree with Balaguer and Trujillo about Haitian,you didn t mentioned what Dessalines did in Moca my birthplace with any person that happens to be white like me or all the French in Haiti, He just killed any person that happens to be white,.....It bothers me sooooo.many Haitian childrens and womens beggin in Santo Domingo ,Santiago and all the towns in REPUBLICA DOMINICANA.Why cant you keep on your side of the ISLAND,We dont want you here......How many times we shou you YOU ARE NOT WELCOME....The same way you show me when i went there.....I didn t felt Welcome ...i naver came back..since 1998.
Written by: jemesouviens1804, 16 Mar 2008 1:18 PM
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
The only reason you felt not welcomed is because you already have a negative xenophobic view of Haitians and that view unconsciously made you think that Haitians regard you in the same way. Haitians are very hospitible people and they don't put no emphasis on race or skin color like you and some of you people do. You need to stop complaining about events that happened way before you were born. If that is the case, I have 35,000 reason that I can whine, and b**** like a baby.
Written by: cibaeño75, 18 Mar 2008 12:48 PM
From: United States, New York City
"I agree with Balaguer and Trujillo about Haitian(s)"

The funny thing about both of them is that they descended from haitians..Trujillo's maternal grandmother was haitian, though that is pretty much common knowledge, but even the archetypical dominican racist intellectual Joaquin Balaguer was of Haitian descent, also through his maternal side. Balaguer's maternal greatgrandfather and the paternal grandfather of the late dominican dictator Lilis Heareaux (the son of a black haitian) were one and the same man. In Balaguer's book La Isla Al Reves there is a section of photos in the book that demonstrate people from my region (cibao) with european features. Balaguer seemed to be proud of this fact. It didn't seem to bother him one bit that these very same people appeared barefoot and some posed in front of their dilipidated shacks. I guess this aspect of the photos didn't bother Mr. Balaguer.
Written by: dreadlocks, 18 Mar 2008 8:19 PM
From: United States
to carbelk99, in the usa, or so he posts: be careful with your importunes to haitians to leave your country, since many in the usa may be feeling the same about you.get the picture?
Written by: Jessica, 7 Apr 2008 5:18 PM
From: United States
This message is for Carbelk99.

First of all, before you say something discriminating or racist that makes you look extremely dumb conduct your research.You said for Haitians to stay on their side right. So, how is it that Dominicans just go to Haiti with their tourist and claim that the Citadelle located in Cap-Haitien is for Dominican Republic and is in in Dominican Republic.
Written by: Jessica, 7 Apr 2008 5:41 PM
From: United States
This one is for JRRubirosa

You are talking as if Dominican republic is a first world country that do not face any problems. Let me tell you something, if it wasn't for the united United States money and supporting Dominican's touristicsites, DR would be facing the same economical problems as Haiti if not worse. Dominican Republic also face poverty, tremendous amounts of girls prostituting( plus they go to prostitute in Haiti) etc. Even Dominicans from this site is reprimending your lack of understanding and your bigoted views. So grow up and stop thinking that the world revolves around you.
Written by: Lautaro, 7 Apr 2008 5:45 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
It's more than obvious that they'll never learn the meaning of the word solidarity, Jessica. The unfortunate thing about all this is that they're not the only fools that are currently being scammed by that xenophobic discourse on this country.
Written by: HAYkickyouintheSHIN, 8 Apr 2008 2:18 PM
From: Haiti
Dominicans claiming the Citadelle is theirs huh? Some people have the nerve. Haitians should claim Lago Enriquillo to be theirs as well as Pico Duarte..located in Haiti, lol.
Written by: HAYkickyouintheSHIN, 8 Apr 2008 2:20 PM
From: Haiti
Go Jessica! Unfortunately your words will never penetrate the thick skull of monkeybrain carbelk and our innocently bigoted Rubirosa.
Written by: cibaeño75, 8 Apr 2008 2:27 PM
From: United States, New York City
First I hear of Dominicans claiming the citadelle. That's nonsense. I doubt very much that any Dominican tour guide would dare venture with their group into Haiti for an excursion considering how unsafe it is for foreigners in Haiti, especially one that requires travel over extremely poor roads and that would take several hours at best (most likely it would take the better part of a day or more from some of the starting points on the dominico-hatian border) which would be the case considering were the citadelle is located. Jessica, if that's the case then prove it. Post the site or article were you supposedly recieved that information from.
Written by: cibaeño75, 8 Apr 2008 2:33 PM
From: United States, New York City
they only misnomer that I know of as far as Haiti is concerned is Labadie, of which Royal Cruise tells its customers (at least last I read about this which was about three years ago) is located in Hispaniola when docking there as opposed to informing its customers that they are now in Haiti when docking.
Written by: antonioj, 8 Apr 2008 11:29 PM
From: Canada, home safe
cibaeño75, 8 Apr 2008 2:27 PM
From: United States

Very childish, and petty, grow up. I agree with Jessica with respect to la citadelle, it's a known fact
Written by: Lautaro, 9 Apr 2008 7:59 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
You'll have to excuse me, mr. antonioj, but on this one I'll have to agree with cibaeño, it's the first time that I hear of dominicans making such a claim. What is astounding about this is that she's talking about a place that holds bad memories and reputation among dominicans, considering that Henri Christophe, aside from using the haitian peasantry as slave labour for the construction of this citadelle, would also come to use the labour of dominican prisoners of war captured during Dessalines' campaign to expel the french from the eastern part of the island on the year 1805, the majority of those POWs being from Cibao. That's one of the reasons that explain why antihaitianismo is specially strong on that region of the country (which is also a tragedy, considering that this region is considered as the backbone of the country, its "crème de la crème"), different to what is happening on the south, where people form both nations are living together without any kind of problems.
Written by: cibaeño75, 9 Apr 2008 10:03 AM
From: United States, New York City
"Very childish, and petty, grow up"

Antonioj, if debunking false information is considered childish and petty by you then by all means continue to consider me childish and petty. Judging from your unwarranted insults I'll probably be in good company.

And again, if anyone has information that demonstrates otherwise then please present it.
Written by: cibaeño75, 9 Apr 2008 10:15 AM
From: United States, New York City
"would also come to use the labour of dominican prisoners of war captured during Dessalines' campaign to expel the french from the eastern part of the island on the year 1805, the majority of those POWs being from Cibao"

Lautaro, where'd you come across this information? I've read contemporary accounts of captured women and children dragged off by haitian troops but I've never come across any accounts of their fate once they were marched off with the haitian army to the western part of the island. I'd be very interested in any information you might have.
Written by: Lautaro, 9 Apr 2008 11:38 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Well, the main sources coming to my mind right now are "Naboth's Vineyard: The Dominican Republic, 1844-1924" by Sumner Welles and "La République d'Haïti et la République Dominicaine" from the celebrated haitian historian Jean Price-Mars, who, on many passages of his book, finds himself regretting the bad footing from which the relations between both nations started out, and foresaw that relations between both nations would only tend to worsen on the future, because Haiti's overpopulation, coupled with the extreme disposession of her masses, would force its population to migrate to the neighbouring country in search for a means of living. The astounding thing about it all, cibaeño, is that he wrote this on a time when Haiti was still better off economically speaking than the DR (1953).
Written by: cibaeño75, 9 Apr 2008 11:51 AM
From: United States, New York City
I've been meaning to read Price-Mars' work for some time now but I'm having a hard time locating english or spanish translations of his work. Can anyone provide any information regarding this? As some of you may or may not know I despise Balaguer and alot of Balaguer's "La Isla Al Reves" was penned as a rebbuttal to some of Price Mars' work. Balaguer's work demonstrated a thinly disguised disdain for Price-Mars. Price-Mars obviously had things to write about that caused Balaguer irritation. This alone makes Price-Mars' writings worthy of seeking out in my opinion. Welles' "Vineyard" is something I should've read some time ago but never got around to doing so I'm going to have to thank you, Lautaro, for renewing my interest in it.
Written by: Lautaro, 9 Apr 2008 11:57 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
The copy that I read from Price Mars book was a spanish translation made by the Dominican Society of Bibliophiles with the economic support of the Banco de Reservas. I came across it on a visit that I payed to the National Archives, but you cand find copies of it on Cuesta or Thesaurus here on Santo Domingo. Thank you for your compliments, mr. cibaeño. :-)
Written by: cibaeño75, 9 Apr 2008 12:16 PM
From: United States, New York City
Caliope's the best. Caliope is a Dominican book store that I frequent in uptown Manhattan. I just got off the phone with them over there. I was told that they'll have the very copy you just mentioned of Price-Mars' work, Lautaro, namely the one published by the Dominican Society of Bibliophiles, will be available by the end of the month. Awesome.
Written by: Lautaro, 9 Apr 2008 12:21 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Well, prepare for a really entertaining reading, mr. cibaeño, because the book is large and quite engaging, although my only complain is that it's way too pessimistic for my taste.
Written by: jemesouviens1804, 13 Apr 2008 2:27 AM
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
Reading Cibaeno and Latauro comments paints an image of both of them smoking a pipe, with legs crossed, sitting in front of a fireplace talking about literature and politics. You guys are bringing a smile to my face.
Written by: dreadlocks, 15 Apr 2008 2:43 PM
From: United States
Mr Latauro and cibaeno always bring a smile to my face also, Jemesouviens. this usually happens after some of the cretins in this forum move me to tears!
Written by: Jessica, 18 Apr 2008 8:44 PM
From: United States
This is extremely sad how most Dominicans think they are better than us; because there was also a time where it was the reversed; where Haiti was better economically than the DR. I remmember my parents and grandparents telling me about Dominicans migrating to Haiti to come for work and to me it's sad how now you guy's mistreat the Haitians in your country. I do not believe that the Dominican gov should let every Haitian who do not have proper documentation through ,because a country needs to have control over there border,but the mistreatments is not call for.Imagine if we had done the same for you during those period.
Written by: arcatype This user is banned, 21 Apr 2008 2:47 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Typical situation of an inept goverment!!!!!
Written by: antonioj, 21 Apr 2008 4:39 PM
From: Canada, home safe
Dominican Republic
Typical situation of an inept goverment!!!!!

I totally agree,I am getting impatient now, I think I will soon come to a conclusion,unless things are changing otherwise Haiti should be acknowledged as a fail state and let the UN take control for 10 years.

The goverment have no creativity or no imagination

1.Population control(if you can not feed yourself why giving birth to 5 children, it's a crime)
2. Caring for the land ( outlaw charcoal, automatic death sentence for logging, mass tree re-planting project.
3. back to basic ( land cultivation, agriculture ect,)
4. Infrastructure
5. Stop handing out to Haiti (do not give me the fish, show me how to fish)
Written by: arcatype This user is banned, 24 Apr 2008 10:18 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Sorry mr. Hispanolano i dont agree with your assesment as far as the non-taino presence in the dominican racial make up. The study has been done that clearly state that many dominicans have indigenous or taino in their blood. As far as your wishes for some kind of unity, i dont believe in such thing. I dont want to lose my identity as a dominican im happy with it, as far as further cooperation and trade it's not a problem. 2 million haitians is a threat to our sovereignty, what's next legalize their status make them dominican and then watch more people come in legalize them also then what become haitianized. No!, thats my answer a million times. If a person that is born in the D.R. and their parents are haitian illegals, you are not dominican youre still a haitian you crossed that border illegaly your status is still illegal that means your haitian period.
Written by: arcatype This user is banned, 24 Apr 2008 10:37 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Cont., Regardless of what some people percieve because of ignorance these two countries are very different, and must remain separate.
Written by: antonioj, 25 Apr 2008 7:10 AM
From: Canada, home safe
Quote
"arcatype, 24 Apr 2008 10:18 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Sorry mr. Hispanolano i dont agree with your assesment as far as the non-taino presence in the dominican racial make up. The study has been done that clearly state that many dominicans have indigenous or taino in their blood. As far as your wishes for some kind of unity, i dont believe in such thing. I dont want to lose my
"
Unquote

You can not be serious, your argument is flawed, I have debated that same subject numerous time. This is another propaganda myth to make Dominican feel superior. I invite you to do so some more research, sorry Mr arctype do not try to sneak that bull.. here. I am sure you do not beleive in Santa Clauss.
Written by: HispanolanoYoSoy This user is banned, 25 Apr 2008 2:43 PM
From: United States, Smyrna, GA


let us preach about more love, unity, humanity, civility and respect for one another. where have all the good stuff gone to, when has our heart gone so sour that we have lost all human decencies as people?
Written by: arcatype This user is banned, 25 Apr 2008 5:01 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Antonioj Why would you think this has to do with feeling superior? you must suffer from an inferior complex. It's a fact the study has been done, you could see it in the physical features of many dominican's. Hispanolano this is my opinion and the opinion of most dominicans we dont want to be haitianized, im being honest. Honesty is the best policy!!!!!
Written by: arcatype This user is banned, 25 Apr 2008 5:17 PM
From: Dominican Republic
This is why those illegals that are born in the Dominican Republic are not granted the dominican citizenship if we were to legalize all those illegals we would be overrunned with haitians. And you know Haiti has an overpopulation problem. Also most importantly we want to maintain our identity our culture our language our customs, everything that pertains to who we are. Haiti is there for the haitians, it's there where you got to concentrate your efforts to change your nation. That sweet talk does not convince me at all, keep the sweet talk in Haiti they need it there more!
Written by: HispanolanoYoSoy This user is banned, 25 Apr 2008 5:49 PM
From: United States, Smyrna, GA

Recognition Denied: The Betrayal at Panama.
http://www.haiti-usa.org/index.php

Go Under The Content of:
An Historical Look at Haiti-U.S. Relationships.

However one may read all the other posts if so wishes to do so.
Written by: mito125, 25 Apr 2008 5:54 PM
From: Dominican Republic
HispanolanoYoSoy, aren't you tired of repeating yourself over and over again? What is it with that 3$ a day job your talking about? That fact that you ask a question doesn't mean someone is forced to respond to you!
Written by: arcatype This user is banned, 25 Apr 2008 7:01 PM
From: Dominican Republic
What job are you talking about that pays $3.00 per day, and whats the point of the question?
Written by: HispanolanoYoSoy This user is banned, 25 Apr 2008 7:50 PM
From: United States, Smyrna, GA
Arcatype: Let us say almost just "any" jobs at all...

For example just to name two and to be more specific:

Would you cut sugar canes or on any kind of agricultural plantations for that rate for 18 hours a day?
Would you pick up trash/ clean streets for it from the hours of midnight to six in the morning for that rate?
Written by: HispanolanoYoSoy This user is banned, 25 Apr 2008 7:52 PM
From: United States, Smyrna, GA


Lastly, would you be a Butler in DR for that rate?

Written by: arcatype This user is banned, 25 Apr 2008 10:01 PM
From: Dominican Republic
So you are saying that the $3.00 a day justifies illegal migration from Haiti to D.R., because dominicans would not work for such miserable wages. But what can you buy with $3.00 pesos or even $3.00 dollars that rate seems terribly low, finally what's your point? Just tell me what are you getting at, i cant read your mind!!!!!
Written by: arcatype This user is banned, 25 Apr 2008 10:11 PM
From: Dominican Republic
This thread has become a comedy sketch!
Written by: HispanolanoYoSoy This user is banned, 25 Apr 2008 11:19 PM
From: United States, Smyrna, GA
It does not justify illegal migration. However, we have those in DR much like those enterprises in the US who are exploiting the migration issue to their advantages for cheap labor and once they have no needs for those poor Haitians or if those Haitians were to demand raises or improvement on their working conditions, those enterprises pay Dominican Soldiers or police to escort those Haitians back to the border and expelled then back into Haiti.

Written by: HispanolanoYoSoy This user is banned, 25 Apr 2008 11:21 PM
From: United States, Smyrna, GA
All I am saying is that, much like here in the US, there seem to be a demands for Haitians in DR for cheap labor and at the same time you have the false front that the Dominican Government and politicians put out especially each time elections are nearing close.

Written by: HispanolanoYoSoy This user is banned, 25 Apr 2008 11:23 PM
From: United States, Smyrna, GA
Speaking of wanting the cake and eat it too, most Dominicans would supposedly want the Haitians to go back to Haiti and stop coming. Believe me, me too I would love such a thing, the day when Haitians would not have to cross the border; but can you sincerely say that the Working Labor force in DR do not want those immigrants or illegal migrants to do the jobs that they would never consider themselves much like here in the US with the Mexican issues...
Written by: HispanolanoYoSoy This user is banned, 25 Apr 2008 11:25 PM
From: United States, Smyrna, GA
For the same reasons why you would not want to be a Butler, a trash picker or street Cleaner much less a sugar cane cutter, a poor Haitian in dire need to survive would consider it and yet without any prospects of improvement in the nearing future for them.
Written by: HispanolanoYoSoy This user is banned, 25 Apr 2008 11:33 PM
From: United States, Smyrna, GA

Amigo,

On both sides of the issues and to include as well both nations have an obligation to address the situation with an approach. Granted, as Dominicans we (or should I say "you", because you guys have denied me of being Dominican) must understand somewhere down the line or the road, something has got to give.
Written by: HispanolanoYoSoy This user is banned, 25 Apr 2008 11:35 PM
From: United States, Smyrna, GA
We can say we do not want to be Haitianized as Dominicans all we want as though Haitians are diseases much like Trujillo thought, but we have to be willing to do the jobs and positions those Haitians are/ were doing or occupied yourselves so that they are not encourage to crosse over as well as those institutions must be brought to justice or be penalized when do so bring illegal immigrants to work these domains and who are exploiting those very same migrants you guys want out so much.
Written by: HispanolanoYoSoy This user is banned, 25 Apr 2008 11:41 PM
From: United States, Smyrna, GA

If I were much of a religious person, I would pray by the Gods that ever should DR end up in a positions where their economical, political or socials aspects and prosperity are in complete jeopardy or shamble that they will not need the assistance of a neighbor. Newton's Law of physic: what comes up, must come down. In retrospect, when something is already down it has no other way but to go up; but something that is up much a fall is highly anticipated and inevitable. Hey, Haiti was up once right. So by those same Gods must she pick herself right back up again I hope dear neighbor.
Written by: HispanolanoYoSoy This user is banned, 25 Apr 2008 11:49 PM
From: United States, Smyrna, GA

As a Dominican-Haitian myself, this is such a strong predicament. I wish I could be as agnostic on the issues as I am religiously. As much as we want to stop those poor immigrants from entering DR, we have offered no much leniency to those Haitians already there. Granted they are in so called transitions... Transition to what? Transition indicate a process that is due to an ultimate end thus hopeful and satisfying opposing the already existed state or stature. What is being implied when one says "In Transition"? In transition so when we are done with them we ship them back or in transition to eventually become citizen or what... That is what must be defined and explained.
Written by: HispanolanoYoSoy This user is banned, 25 Apr 2008 11:57 PM
From: United States, Smyrna, GA
TRANSITION |tran'zi sh ?n; -'si sh ?n| - noun: The process or a period of changing from one state or condition to another : students in transition from one program to another | a transition to multiparty democracy.

• a passage in a piece of writing that smoothly connects two topics or sections to each other.
• Music a momentary modulation from one key to another.
• Physics a change of an atom, nucleus, electron, etc., from one quantum state to another, with emission or absorption of radiation.
Written by: HispanolanoYoSoy This user is banned, 25 Apr 2008 11:58 PM
From: United States, Smyrna, GA
TRANSITION |tran'zi sh ?n; -'si sh ?n| - noun: The transition from school to work change, passage, move, transformation, conversion, metamorphosis, alteration, handover, changeover; segue, shift, switch, jump, leap, progression; progress, development, evolution, flux.
Written by: HispanolanoYoSoy This user is banned, 26 Apr 2008 12:10 AM
From: United States, Smyrna, GA

So which transition in question is a Haitian actually is in and for how long is this duration of such transition? Such transition should not be applied to or for one's Grand-grand children if those grand children to say the least are born on Dominican soil of which is in fact their natal soil and only one they know. Thus define DR's term of transition a transition to what?
Written by: arcatype This user is banned, 26 Apr 2008 12:11 AM
From: Dominican Republic
Hispanolano The dominican goverment should sanction the hiring of illegals because it's true it attracts illegal haitians for those jobs that should be paying good wages for dominican citizens. Exploitation is an enterprise for these businessmen that are saving capital while paying low wages. It happens probably everywhere in the world, one way or another. It still dont justify mass migration from our neighbors to the west. Haiti is extremely out of shape the Dominican Republic should not by any means grant legal status to haitians, theirs just too many people our economy can't support so many. And dont bring race into this discussion thats a cheap ploy, that simply does not have real relevance when youre talking about basic economics. Which have to do with many factors like employment, water, food, energy all of these have to increase with more people living in limited spaces. The haitian goverment has to come out of the shadow and rescue it's own in their own domain.
Written by: HispanolanoYoSoy This user is banned, 26 Apr 2008 12:13 AM
From: United States, Smyrna, GA

The question is, would you want your baby to be denied birth rights if your baby was to have been born on a land such as Spain, France, and most of al U.S.A? Granted a physically caught illegal him or herself may be in transition to either being transitioning toward re-deportation or grated asylum given if he or she has some kind of representation noted a crime has been committed. The question is, would you want your baby to be denied birth rights if your baby was to have been born on a land such as Spain, France, and most of al U.S.A?
Written by: HispanolanoYoSoy This user is banned, 26 Apr 2008 12:13 AM
From: United States, Smyrna, GA

Granted a physically caught illegal immigrant or migrant him or herself may be in transition to either being transitioning or heading toward re-deportation or granted asylum toward a prospect-able documented status of perhaps a visa, workers permit and eventually a given chance to naturalization if such individual were to wish to seek given if he or she has some kind of representation noted if a crime has been committed.
Written by: HispanolanoYoSoy This user is banned, 26 Apr 2008 12:21 AM
From: United States, Smyrna, GA
Now Arcatype, I truly understand the fear or xenophobia at hand on DR's part that given they have just recently gain their economic gain per capita status as being steadily thus far stable in term of economical prosperity. They have every right to protect that, but not by abuse or the means of Human Rights violations. To sanction those enterprises and to try to regulate on a strong border crossing policy understand that this very economy of which DR we are trying to protect may be well facing certain prospect to collapse itself. Have you taken any Economics courses before and I am sure you have heard of Microeconomics and Macroeconomics and each of their respectable functions in certain societies.

Written by: HispanolanoYoSoy This user is banned, 26 Apr 2008 12:28 AM
From: United States, Smyrna, GA
To agree with you, yes indeed the Haitian Government has a higher obligation to its citizen much like Governments from any other Country do, however you, and other Dominicans have yet or fail to realize to comprehend what it means to be a Country in a phase of unstable certainties or in fact is in a political, economical as well as social quagmire. Nevertheless, I do not expect that you will ever understand unless one day DR were to be facing the same course. Let us reverse the whole situation where Haiti is DR and DR is Haiti; as a human being would you not want to demand rights for at least your children who have been born in a State where you indeed might have been an illegal in? would you not want your child to stand a change to live in this sociaty given this is the only land he or she knows? Would you not?
Written by: arcatype This user is banned, 26 Apr 2008 12:30 AM
From: Dominican Republic
Litsen i already told you article 11. of the dominican constitution, clearly does not support migrants illegaly crossing the geograpical border of the Dominican Republic. Theirs nothing written that specifies illegal entry then birth then legal status. We can't carry the load of another country, if you cant understand that then youre just being hard-headed.
Written by: HispanolanoYoSoy This user is banned, 26 Apr 2008 12:33 AM
From: United States, Smyrna, GA


ALL HAITI IS ASKING RIGHT NOW IS A LITTLE HUMAN PATIENCE AND PERHAPS SOME COLLABORATION MAYBE POLITICALLY AND DIPLOMATICALLY TO FIGURE OUT A WAY THE BEST SOLUTION TO CO-EXIST AS TWO CIVILIZED INDEPENDENT NATIONS AS THE LATIN-AMERICAN COUNTRY WE BOTH ARE.

Something that xenophobia, racism, discrimination, hatred and human rights violation will not solve.
Written by: HispanolanoYoSoy This user is banned, 26 Apr 2008 12:39 AM
From: United States, Smyrna, GA

But you still have not answer the question I personally have asked you...
Would you not want your child to stand a change to live in a society given this is the only land he or she knows or was born onto? Would you want your baby to be denied birth rights if your baby was to have been born on a land such as U.S.A? Lastly, from our (by our, I mean DR) Constitutional Article 11-15 Define the word Transition to me in your very own terms. What is your definition of the word TRANSITION?
Written by: arcatype This user is banned, 26 Apr 2008 12:39 AM
From: Dominican Republic
Litsen hispanolano your not being fair and objective, haiti's problems is not the D.R.'s responsibilty. When will haitians take charge of their affairs, the truth is out Haiti is a failed country because of haitians social ill's.
Written by: HispanolanoYoSoy This user is banned, 26 Apr 2008 12:40 AM
From: United States, Smyrna, GA
They are, believe me they are... the process may seem a slow one, but they are is what most other dominicans have not been able to see. Look at this simple situation where you guys on here have denied me being Dominican simply because I am of Haitian mix and I tend to be Pro-Haitians, proving that Dominicans will not accept anyone who has the Haitian blood in them. Yet we try to hide behind political differences to mask our own xenophobia and vindication toward the Haitians.

Arcatype, I will leave this along; especially since you can not personally honestly answer so me questions I ask you to answer with all political situations aside. You Win, DR wins and DR is the chosen God's children. Haitians are beasts, Dominicans are saints.
Written by: HispanolanoYoSoy This user is banned, 26 Apr 2008 12:56 AM
From: United States, Smyrna, GA


Arcatype, tell me what you think of this link okay... http://www.nchr.org/hrp/dr/iachr_backgrounder.htm
Written by: arcatype This user is banned, 26 Apr 2008 1:36 AM
From: Dominican Republic
Hispanolano How can you tell a country that has a neighbor that is the poorest country in the hemisphere to just legalize anyone that crosses it's border illegaly. Are you crazy!, the Dominican Republic is a sovereign country. Article 11. could be override by the dominican goverment, in the case of 2 million haitian's plus. What's next let us give them everything we have, just because they deserve better mr. hispanolano your being selfish and annoying. Article 11. again does not state that illegal migrants could cross the Dominican Republic border illegaly then become legal and on top of that legalize the status of as many children as a person wants.
Written by: HispanolanoYoSoy This user is banned, 26 Apr 2008 2:27 AM
From: United States, Smyrna, GA
I never said anyone who crosses the border, never. However their children and grand children nevertheless who are born on the land. It is obviously a fact that Pena Gomez would have never won or has gotten as close as he has had it not been because Dominicans know or found out later he was of Haitian descent adopted or took in by a Dominican family.

In fact politically, if perhaps I may speculate, that played a big role why he did not win the main election back then. However you are right those that are already physically or personally illegal immigrants or migrants themselves I never said the have to be given the rights of regular "Born" citizen such as should be given their children whom are "Born" on the soil. Those that are illegal migrants, if such a process for them to earn their citizenship is not permittable fine, their children and grand children has noting to do with their acts of illegality and you know it.
Written by: mito125, 26 Apr 2008 8:29 AM
From: Dominican Republic
HispanolanoYoSoy, it seems you hijacked the topic, about half of the comments are yours. Why are you so persistent?, don't you see almost everyone has stop answering to you? I can certainly say you are almost blocking everyone else with the way you are posting...
Written by: antonioj, 26 Apr 2008 9:06 AM
From: Canada, home safe
I will add this one too Mr HispanolanoYoSoy

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=T4mUzx9NfZ8

I agree with you on immigration Mr Hispanola, if you are born in a country, you should be the citizen of that country. Mr arcatype appear to be on the border line on being ultra nationalistic on this issue, however I can understand his sentiment.

I understand Mr HispanolanoYoSoy you are passionate about alot of the issues, however you are taking alot of room here, and alot of your questions are repetitive.

It is only fair to hear what other have to say as well, so we can have a more balance perspective.
Written by: arcatype This user is banned, 26 Apr 2008 11:14 AM
From: Dominican Republic
As much as you and other haitians despise anything european you want dominicans to deny their european and indigenous background and only accept the african culture like if we deny it!. Mr. hispanolano the video's that you posted dont represent anything of importance related to the issue's at hand. And you wrote about pena gomez losing an election, that he lost fair and square. And youre implying that he was cheated because of his haitian origin. Litsen just because your half haitian it dont mean that the Dominican Republic has to become one nation with Haiti, or that the D.R. has to legalize the status of 2 million haitians. Just because the haitian elites and goverment feel compelled to dump their poor on our side of the island, it dont mean that we got to submit to their rules. So please stop it with the race issue your not getting any pointers with such a weak paradigm!
Written by: antonioj, 26 Apr 2008 11:59 AM
From: Canada, home safe
Mr arctype can you provide the source you are quoting from. You said there are 2 million Haitians living in DR. I have a problem with that number because it does not jibe

This is the statistic from DR official site

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0107475.html

Ethnicity/race: white 16%, black 11%, mixed 73%

I am no math major however 11% of 9 million is approximately 900,900
either all the black in DR are Haitians or there are no Black Dominicans or your 11% black is fictive.
Written by: arcatype This user is banned, 26 Apr 2008 12:24 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Antonioj 11% black is correct that means a person of 100% african heritage or not mixed, like 95% of the haitian population that's of pure west african origin. Haitians are not accounted in that chart. Can you do me and others a favor and start talking about solutions in Haiti, that's where you got to concentrate your efforts on.
Written by: antonioj, 26 Apr 2008 12:46 PM
From: Canada, home safe
Thank you for Clarifying, I do have a problem if Haitians are not accounted, where is that figure of 2 millions come from.

In my case I am by the barbecue grill would I be mixed, mulato, or white in DR, just a thought.

http://ca.youtube.com/user/antonioj1

Anyways Haiti need to start with the basic agriculture, replanting, land conservation, infrastructure
Written by: arcatype This user is banned, 26 Apr 2008 12:59 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Stop it with the race nonsense the Dominican Republic is a country independent and with a geographical border respect that! the dominican state can deport or expell anyone they please if they are not welcomed in the country. Especially when it comes to our neighbors Haiti that have invaded us several times and even occupied us in the past, and never were welcomed. Our stability is being threatened by a nation that cant govern itself that is in constant threat of coup's and civil unrest a country dominated by a small elite of mulatto's that exploit and hate the majority black population of Haiti. Haitian nationals are also constantly discrediting the Dominican state as one that exploits it's nationals or discriminates them (haitians) and have campaigned in Europe even the U.S. to ban the tourist industry in the Dominican Republic in a country where many haitians are employed themselves in. They complain about everything and everybody and not about their own goverment period.
Written by: HispanolanoYoSoy This user is banned, 26 Apr 2008 1:00 PM
From: United States, Smyrna, GA
"You want dominicans to deny their european and indigenous background and only accept the african culture like if we deny it!." That is exactly what Dominicans do is deny the Africanism, tehre is no "as if" or "as like" about it, indeed Dominicans do embrace Euro-Spain and only pretentiously claim their Tainoism because it sounds romantic and it gives you a better sense of Originality but do so more to save faces so that yo are not viewed as barbaric Spaniard Spain Dominicans admire and glorify so much yet guys like Bosch, Trujillo and Balaguer keeps on reminding us all that Dominicans are exactly like the Spaniards who wiped out the existence of a Native race of the land that ironically Dominicans still pretend to like so much.
Written by: HispanolanoYoSoy This user is banned, 26 Apr 2008 1:00 PM
From: United States, Smyrna, GA

"Haitians are not accounted in that chart." Is pretty much the sentiments of most Dominicans to see Haiti not being on any chart at all. I never said to legalized two million people, I said their children and grand children are not two million. One more thing, it is 1.2 millions. That includes in there the children and grandchildren who are born in DR that Dominicans sill consider those kids to be Haitians in their terms "In Transition" still. Haitians are not anti-europeans, they are anti-conquerism.

Written by: antonioj, 26 Apr 2008 1:11 PM
From: Canada, home safe
"
Haitian nationals are also constantly discrediting the Dominican state as one that exploits it's nationals or discriminates them (haitians) and have campaigned in Europe even the U.S. to ban the tourist industry in the Dominican Republic in a country where many haitians are employed themselves in. They complain about everything and everybody and not about their own goverment period.
"
That is wrong where is the proof,? I think it was more like the jesuites and the foreigners living in DR that took the plight, of Haitians. Haitians have in no way transpire to denigrade DR and stop their tourism, this argument just does not hold water.

just to recap, also let me state , if your loose defintion of mixed where apply to Haiti. Haiti will be more like 75% black or 25% mixed and white, anyways that beside the point.

I complained about the Haitian government, specially the noirism that papa doc were engaged.
if you are quoting make sure your facts are verifiable.
Written by: arcatype This user is banned, 26 Apr 2008 1:25 PM
From: Dominican Republic
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Written by: Lautaro, 26 Apr 2008 4:18 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
antonioj: "In my case I am by the barbecue grill would I be mixed, mulato, or white in DR, just a thought."

I'm assuming that you're the man eating with the ladies on the video, are you not? If so, man, were you to say to a regular dominican chap that you're an haitian national, he/she'd think that you're taking him/her for a fool. The reason for it is that the people over here tend to take things at face value, as in thinking that EVERY haitian national have the same complexion of the poor men working in the construction projects or the women and children seen begging on the main avenues of Santo Domingo. They think that every light skinned haitian was either massacred or exiled by the Dessalines' regime or the Duvalier Sr. one. It only goes to show the success that our elites have had in maintaining our population in ignorance. As for mr. arcatype comments, my opinion is that, although I disagree with him on some accounts, I find myself agreeing with him on one account (cont..)
Written by: Lautaro, 26 Apr 2008 4:27 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
(cont...) and that account is that the dominican state have to reformulate its migration laws in order to put more stingent rules on place, as in limiting the citizenship and nationality only to the people of a certain economic strata (preferrably from middle to high classes with CLEAN resources to invest on the country, no laundering money to be allowed), cuz' our post-crisis economy is not in a condition to absorb the poor from other countries be it cuban, colombian, west indian, and yes haitian (sorry mr. antonioj and hispanolano, but your people are the absolute majority of the inmigrant population of this country, were they to have economic resources to invest, perhaps they'll be looked upon differently). The current inmigration law is no longer adequate to our times, because it was a made on a epoch when our country was almost depopulated, so it's no longer serving the purpose for which it was made, and at most, it's only getting increasingly more of a liability by the minute.
Written by: Lautaro, 26 Apr 2008 4:35 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
(cont...) As such, what our country is needing right now is capital resources not manpower, because with our own poor and the haitian inmigrants currently on our country there's more than enough manpower to serve the economy's purposes. What is needed is for the dominican state to make a crackdown both on the inmigrant traffic nets, the construction and agrarian business and yes, even some of the higher ups in the gov that are profitting from the existing situation, and then, when that is out of the way, to start the process of determining which of the people on illegal status have the right to stay and which need to go, even if in the process families are separated. Sorry but, as someone over here said, politics are not for the weak hearted, and some really though decisions are needed to be taken if we want to get out of the existing disorder, and as such, we can't copycat the US family reunification policies because (cont..)
Written by: arcatype This user is banned, 26 Apr 2008 4:41 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Lautaro nobody is saying that theirs no light skin people in Haiti, but the race issue is not the problem between the Dominican Republic and Haiti is the lack of organization that exist in Haiti as far as economics and overpopulation that does effect everything from the environment to domestic food production. For a country that gets a lot of their food from the D.R. and external sources principally from the U.S. a country of whites, haitians nag a lot about their situation. Instead of focusing all there energy on their goverment that lacks leadership and trust, because of so much corruption and greed from a handful of people. They concentrate their effort on discrediting their neighbor and the U.S. that has given Haiti billions in aid.
Written by: Lautaro, 26 Apr 2008 4:43 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
(cont...) 1- The limited resources of our economy., 2- Haitian families are just too plain LARGE (sorry, but it's a proven statistical fact that Haiti's total fertility rate is 4.86 children born/woman or higher while the DR one is of 2.86 children born/woman or lower). In short, the DR's economy needs inmigrants affluent enough that they'll not bankrupt the state with the strain that their needs most surely put to the already scant public resources and with the technical expertise to allow the country to make the jump from a cheap labour based economy to a heavily technological one, just like it happened with the so called Asian Tigers (Taiwan, South Korea, Japan, Singapur, and recently, the People's Republic of China).
Written by: arcatype This user is banned, 26 Apr 2008 4:47 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Cont., That money just made the elites & the duvalier's and their administration very wealthy, while making Haiti what it is today a country with extreme poverty. And let me be clear we dont want to be haitianized so yes our border needs to be sealed.
Written by: antonioj, 26 Apr 2008 5:14 PM
From: Canada, home safe
Yes that me, Mr Lautaro I totally agree with you and I always welcome your fair and balance opinion. The declined of Haiti started with noirism initiated by papa doc, alot of us were forced to exile or killed. (google massacre of jeremie) my hometown .

These folks had the knowledge, and the money they have left in 50's 60's and late 70's thr middle class evaporated or little was left.

I think something no one I have not yet mentioned is population control do not seem to be in the forefront, specially in Haiti case, any help should have such string attached.

I think Haitian population should be reduced to 7 millions or further growth control to nil
this what Haiti used to be (con tristeta) http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=bRVPoxDgbBo
Written by: jemesouviens1804, 28 Apr 2008 11:08 AM
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
To: Antonioj,
Looking at this video man......It makes me want to cry.
Written by: antonioj, 28 Apr 2008 12:03 PM
From: Canada, home safe
"
Written by: arcatype, 26 Apr 2008 4:47 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Cont., That money just made the elites & the duvalier's and their administration very wealthy, while making Haiti what it is today a country with extreme poverty. And let me be clear we dont want to be haitianized so yes our border needs to be sealed.
"
You have it nail, and you so right. It term that you do not want to be Haitianized, it's a normal response, a better off Haiti should alleviate these fears, I think your concerns to some instance could be justified but we have to be very careful and fair and how to handle such situations.
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