From: Dominican Republic, Barbacoa Samana in the Hills
this is to sad for me to contemplate today ......children living like this
Written by: xwill7, 30 Nov 2009 11:32 AM
From: United States, Chicago
tighten border security! You closed the front door but the back door is wide open... This is stupid.. The Dominican gov makes such a big deal when you come in via airport... they scan your baggs and make sure you pay the visa fees but at the same time thousands are coming in for free, destroying the country, and reducing the number of open jobs.
Written by: ateo1992 
, 30 Nov 2009 11:45 AM
From: Dominican Republic
build a wall
!!
From: Pakistan, Lahore
NEWS REPORT: Corrupt Politicians bought votes last elections, and they're buying votes this elections!
This should be of more outrage than anything else, as w/o fixing our political problems, the migration, development, and human rights issues are unlikely to be addressed.
Written by: josean, 30 Nov 2009 12:37 PM
From: United States
More evidence of the efficient management of the border by LIE-onel Fernandez and the "great" PLD!
Written by: HONEST, 30 Nov 2009 12:47 PM
From: Netherlands Antilles
What is the Hatian Goverment up to?
Written by: molloy, 30 Nov 2009 1:09 PM
From: United States
HONEST, to answer your question.......absolutely nothing!
Written by: josean, 30 Nov 2009 1:11 PM
From: United States
Both governments are best in a type of neglectful cahoots, if not in outright collusion!
From: United States
is the return of the zombies , begging, stealing, illegaly here . I would round them up again and this time they should be send back to a haitin jail cell
Written by: josean, 30 Nov 2009 2:38 PM
From: United States
telemeco
It appears that dominican "men" from Paterson, New Jersey are very trigger happy!
Written by: yowzerDR, 30 Nov 2009 3:00 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Merging the countries isn't a solution, so build a wall to divide them, but make it a tourist attraction like the great wall of china. It is ranked on the list of the 7 Wonders of the World. The Wall attracts around four million tourists every year.
And get a third party, like the UN to escort the illegal Haitians out of the country to avoid conflict.
Written by: josean, 30 Nov 2009 3:09 PM
From: United States
And get a third party, like the UN to escort the illegal Haitians out of the country to avoid conflict.
Good idea!
However you will have to convice the wealthy Dominicans to let go of their "slave" labor first!
Written by: PATCHUKO, 30 Nov 2009 3:48 PM
From: Canada
I agree totally JOSEAN alot of people seems to forget that very important fact, Dominican society has an umbilical atttachment to Haitians otherwise this would have been done a long time ago. Unless Dominican Men starts to go back in droves leaving their Jeepeetas, cervesas, and go to the farmlands to cut sugarcane this will never happen.
Written by: josean, 30 Nov 2009 4:03 PM
From: United States
"backstabbing Mother f**er."
"sh*thole you call haiti,"
Now who has the DIRTY MOUTH again?
Written by: telemeco, 30 Nov 2009 4:17 PM
From: United States, Paterson, New Jersey
Josean, most Dominican from P town
are ex U.S. Military,,,yes Gun can fix problem and create new one, but with these situation,,a Gun would fix more problem that what it would create,,,,shoot them,,,after the word get around they stop crossing
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo & Miami
telemeco
that's the only tonge they speak in haiti. gun powder and led my friend
why you think you haven't see more smoke columns coming out of the sierra de bahouruco lately.
all it took was 4 burn bodies to stop the illegal tree chopping in the area.
Written by: josean, 30 Nov 2009 4:32 PM
From: United States
Written by: xwill7, 30 Nov 2009 4:40 PM
From: United States, Chicago
patchuko,
I know a ton of Dominicans outside of SD and Santiago that would work what ever open job they could find
Written by: xwill7, 30 Nov 2009 4:42 PM
From: United States, Chicago
old school,
that kid is working for the parent or pimp that has him out there begging... the money goes to the adult. Simple, you put 10 to 20 kids to beg everyday and it creates good change for the adult
Written by: josean, 30 Nov 2009 4:42 PM
From: United States
x,
If that's the case what is the problem?
Written by: xwill7, 30 Nov 2009 5:03 PM
From: United States, Chicago
se jodio la raza... that is the problem
Written by: josean, 30 Nov 2009 5:16 PM
From: United States
"I know a ton of Dominicans outside of SD and Santiago that would work what ever open job they could find"
x,
What I mean is, if Dominicans are willing to do the work Haitian's are doing there wouldn't be a market for illegal labor!
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo & Miami
the problem josean is that you need to keep your kids under control, for a change how about keeping them in haiti with their mothers instead of selling them as slaves to beg in DR.
you can lie all you want about you been dominican, but you're not fooling anyone here
all you have to do to stop people from attacking you from every angle is to say the truth, that you're a haitian that are fully ashame of your country and most rather pose as a dominican, but when people here start ripping haitians for been savages you feel bad about your compadres and try to somehow criticizes dominicans without revealing your true ethnic background.
is as simple as that, i personally will stop calling you maggot and afro-lambon or any other piropo i had used before.
just come out of the closet, i dare you
Written by: josean, 30 Nov 2009 5:33 PM
From: United States
I do feel sorry for my countrymen!
Dominicans like you who are so full of hatred and ignorance that it makes us look like uncivilized barbarians with a useless METRO, who need a whole lot EDUCATION!
Written by: xwill7, 30 Nov 2009 6:07 PM
From: United States, Chicago
josen,
the illegals have brought the wages down too low for dominicans to want the work. kick them out and you will see the wage increase. as long as illegals are in the country the wages will be low
Written by: msjersey, 30 Nov 2009 6:10 PM
From: United States, New Jersey(Cibaeno/Los mina)
joseano, joseano, joseano........
Written by: Lautaro, 30 Nov 2009 6:48 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
josean said: "Dominicans like you who are so full of hatred and ignorance that it makes us look like uncivilized barbarians with a useless METRO, who need a whole lot EDUCATION!"
In my humble opinion, you really need to put that "disco rayado" of the lack of education being the main problem of this country, specially after reading the following article:
NO TODO ES EDUCACION
Escrito por: Orlando Gómez Torres (ogomez@redpolitica.com)
El consenso generalizado del problema de mayor relevancia en República Dominicana es la falta de educación. Todos lo repiten como loros, desde los más intelectuales hasta el analfabeto, el problema dominicano es la abstracta y subjetiva figura de la falta de educación.
(cont...)
Written by: Lautaro, 30 Nov 2009 6:49 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
(cont...)
Y es abstracto porque es imposible definir como la falta de educación incide directamente en que RD tenga corrupción o exactamente qué tipo de educación es la que hace falta. Porque ciertamente, no saber como sacar un logaritmo neperiano no va a ser la razón por la cual yo crucé el semáforo en rojo, igual que no tendrá ninguna incidencia no haber tomado clases de moral y cívica en la decisión de alguien en si vender o no drogas.
Decir que el problema es la falta de educación es la forma de moda de echarle la responsabilidad a otro, por lo general al Estado, sin atreverse a asumirla como propia. Lo que a su vez significa no hacer nada para cambiar asuntos cuya solución puede ser más concreta, es dejar a lo subjetivo la resolución de algo claro y objetivo.
(cont...)
Written by: Lautaro, 30 Nov 2009 6:50 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
(cont...)
¿Quiénes son los que venden drogas en República Dominicana? ¿Quiénes son los que usan al Estado para enriquecerse? O ¿quienés son los que se benefician manteniendo una burocracia corrupta? ¿Quiénes son los que tratan de meter mercancías de contrabando? ¿Quiénes son los que hacen un desastre en el tránsito de nuestro país? ¿Quiénes son los que abusan de consumidores abultando el costo de los servicios mediocres que venden? ¿Quiénes son los que violentan toda norma de urbanidad concebida? ¿Quiénes son los que se comen un semáforo en rojo o manejan de forma temeraria?
Desde el más bruto, hasta el profesional con maestría en Harvard en República Dominicana comete una o varias de las cosas que cité arriba. Entonces ¿de qué educación estamos hablando?
(cont...)
Written by: Lautaro, 30 Nov 2009 6:51 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
(cont...)
Igual ocurre en los países desarrollados. Hay muchas personas educadas y hay muchísimos igual con una falta de educación formal crónica. Lo curioso es que a pesar de ello, esos países no andan cayéndose a pedazos. Entonces podemos llegar a la conclusión de que la fiebre no está en las sábanas.
No es por menospreciar el enorme beneficio de una educación de calidad disponible para toda la ciudadanía, pero ya es tiempo de que se deje de estar usando una excusa abstracta para no atacar problemas bien claros y concretos.
¿Están las ciudades, calles y avenidas del país en capacidad de mantener un tránsito fluido y organizado para el parque vehicular actual? ¿Es necesaria tanta burocracia Estatal, tantas funciones y tantos impuestos para manejar un país de 10 millones de habitantes?
(cont...)
Written by: Lautaro, 30 Nov 2009 6:52 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
(cont...)
¿Puede haber interés en hacer una vida como empleado cuando el salario promedio no se ajusta siquiera al costo de la vida promedio de una familia clase media? ¿Hay empleo alguno en la calle que asegure un sueldo lo suficientemente atractivo que pueda alejar a los jóvenes del negocio de la droga?
Son muchas preguntas… si tengo suerte, nadie las responderá diciendo “con educación”. El crudo a más de 76 dólares el barril Por BARRY HATTON/The Associated Press Los precios del crudo para entrega a término subieron el miércoles por encima de los 76 dólares el barril ante la debilidad del dólar y a la espera de las estadísticas sobre los inventarios del combustible en Estados Unidos. El crudo de referencia para entrega en enero bajó 39 centavos a 76,41 dólares por barril en la cotización electrónica de la bolsa de la materias primas de Nueva York al mediar la jornada en Europa.
(cont...)
Written by: Lautaro, 30 Nov 2009 6:53 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
(cont...)
El contrato bajó 1,54 dólares para cerrar la víspera a 76,02 dólares. El crudo ha bajado un 7% desde que llegó a 82 dólares por barril el mes pasado ante las pruebas de que la recuperación económica en Estados Unidos será tímida. Con anterioridad en Asia, el precio llegó a caer a 75,78 dólares, El euro fue cotizado a 1,5041 dólares, de 1,4975 la víspera en Nueva York. La libra esterlina subió 1,6692 dólares de 1,6593 en Nueva York, mientras que el dólar bajó a 87,72 yen de 88,56 la víspera. En otras cotizaciones de la bolsa Nymex, el combustible de calefacción subía 0,97 de centavo a 1,96 dólares por galón (3,79 litros). La gasolina para entrega en diciembre ganaba 0,5 de centavo a 1,94 dólares por galón. En el mercado ICE de Londres, la mezcla Brent del Mar del Norte para entrega en enero subía 56 centavos a 77,02 dólares. ——— El periodista de The Associated Press Alex Kennedy contribuyó en Singapur a este artículo.
Written by: Lautaro, 30 Nov 2009 6:54 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Written by: vacanos, 30 Nov 2009 6:57 PM
From: United States, An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Baldoria "NEWS REPORT: Corrupt Politicians bought votes last elections, and they're buying votes this elections! "
This is the problem right here starting with this NGO baldoria23. Because of people like this one branding us racist and xenophobia just to promote their agenda is because our country is in such state with the illegal haitians. Blame the problem on something else right baldoria.
Written by: vacanos, 30 Nov 2009 7:03 PM
From: United States, An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
"They also revealed that some of the immigrants who’ve returned are threatening the Dominicans who helped the inspectors locate their hideouts."
Let's leave our country to them what else to do if there is nothing we can do. There is no Balaguer anymore murio Balaguer se murio el racista que siempre estaba en contra de los Haitianos decian los derechos humano. A que extremo hemos llegado. I hope the pacifist who made Balaguer's life imposible to govern feel happy and complete nowdays. Let the traitor die with no country as Nuñe de Caceres.
Written by: juanb, 30 Nov 2009 7:07 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Old School:
Change your name to Old Fool.
Written by: josean, 30 Nov 2009 7:15 PM
From: United States
There are many interest in the DR that would like people to believe that education is not the common denominator to our social ills because they benefit from the chaos that uneducated populace allows to exist.
Please show me a civilized society or a developed society that has achieved those statuses without universal education, just one, please!
Written by: josean, 30 Nov 2009 7:32 PM
From: United States
"josen,
the illegals have brought the wages down too low for dominicans to want the work. kick them out and you will see the wage increase. as long as illegals are in the country the wages will be low"
X,
You are now qualifying your original statement.
You said " I know a ton of Dominicans outside of SD and Santiago that would work what ever open job they could find"
I emphasize your words "THAT WOULD WORK “WHATEVER JOB” THEY COULD FIND;" Therefore, your statement implies that our Dominican brothers are as desperate as the illegal Haitians. If that is the case there should be no problem in accepting the (I agree) suppressed wages!
Written by: msjersey, 30 Nov 2009 7:37 PM
From: United States, New Jersey(Cibaeno/Los mina)
Congratulation Joseano, it took a lot of courage to admit that you're hatian; nothing wrong with it
my friend it just that you always ripping our government without any rights to do so.
I mean if you're haitian perredeista take it easy pena gomez is dead, and vargas is not the president yet;
Written by: josean, 30 Nov 2009 7:42 PM
From: United States
Missy,
You need Inglés Sin Barreras!
Written by: Atabey, 30 Nov 2009 7:53 PM
From: United States
Reforestation and then Mine the border allowing only two ways, a northern route and a southern route in and out of the country. After a few mishaps, dead walkers, the situation will change for the better.
Written by: ateo1992 , 30 Nov 2009 8:12 PM
From: Dominican Republic
poor baby Josean is crying! awww... pathetic. i have no sympathy for the folks who are destroying my culture and country little by little...
Written by: ateo1992 , 30 Nov 2009 8:14 PM
From: Dominican Republic
It seems that we the young citizens of the Dominican Republic are the generation that will take hard actions on this uncivilized immigrants!
Written by: PATCHUKO, 30 Nov 2009 8:17 PM
From: Canada
Wow "ATABEY says let's mine the border" what if the mishaps happens to tourists my intellectual one, what do you do now? any kind of increased frictiion with Haiti will keep the tourists away, then Dominicans will really have to work and clean the streets, do construction, clean the backyard, cut the sugarcane, sell the avocados, ect.
Written by: josean, 30 Nov 2009 10:17 PM
From: United States
"poor baby Josean is crying! awww... pathetic. i have no sympathy for the folks who are destroying my culture and country little by little..."
Then you must despise LIE-onel Fernandez and the PLD because in addition to mismanaging the border they are selling the country to the highest BRIBER and are doing more damage to the republic than illegal Haitians could ever do. As least the Haitian grow the food you eat and probably built the house or apt you live in!
On the other hand LIE-onel Fernandez and his criminal enterprise steal from the poor to give to themselves and their rich friends!
Written by: josean, 30 Nov 2009 10:28 PM
From: United States
Now for the rest of the Story!
Migration deports, others let back in
On Saturday, Migration inspectors were surprised to see most of the people they arrested and deported on Thursday going about their tasks as if nothing had happened. One of the inspectors who took part in the roundup said that he felt helpless when he saw that some of the Haitians he had arrested on Thursday were on the streets of Santiago. "I can't believe that they are already back in the country so quickly...incredible... we are working for nothing," he told Hoy reporters.
He said that the same people who had been arrested and deported were at their usual spots begging for money on the city's main intersections.
In Santiago's Cienfuegos barrio where the roundup took place, residents complained about the Haitians' return.
Continued:
Written by: josean, 30 Nov 2009 10:30 PM
From: United States
Jesuit priest Father Regino Martinez, who coordinates the Frontier Solidarity movement in Dajabon, told reporters from the Spanish news agency EFE that the deportation of immigrants does not solve anything. He said, "You don't achieve anything with this, because while the Migration authorities are repatriating the undocumented immigrants, other authorities are letting them return". Martinez has continuously reported the toll military authorities charge for letting illegal immigrants through the border.
Source DR1
It appears our military are also beggars!
Written by: riosm, 30 Nov 2009 11:01 PM
From: United States
WOW ! I can feel the hate and frustration all the way to Palmdale California.
Now that this article has gotten everybody's attention why can't we turn all this negative energy into solutions without nip picking and personal attacks on each other.
The problem the way I see it is the responsibility of both the Dominican and Haitian Governments not the People they are suppose to govern.
Where's VivaCuba when ya need um ! not to attack anybody myself, but........it's just nice to get some insight from another angle that's all, after all the U.S has nothing to do with the Haitian problem.......or do they ? LOL
From: Botswana, La reconnaissance est une lachete'
While you guys on this forrum are mad as hell about this subject, your countrymen who have become acustoms to flying around the island in helicopters are laughing all the way to the bank. Your political class have left you hanging on this issue, they have become acustoms to eating froi gras and drinking port wine, have no intention of going back to eating white rice with platanos and a fry egg on top forget drinking brugal. Yes Sir cry me a river nobody is listening.
From: United States, Fresh Water Paradise-NY Finger Lakes
Forgive me for just one minute....what the heck do rich Dominicans have to do with that child begging in the streets of Santiago/Santo Domingo/Puerto Plata/etc.? You can't exactly blame this on the privileged class, for they clearly are not benefiting from this child's actions-I believe.
We are tired of whole situation and excuses. US should feel same way and be mad as hell and send all the illegals back, too, be they Dominican, Mexican or anything else. All these wrongs need to be righted, and the sooner the better.
It is high time for Dominican patriotic fervor to take precedence over bachata and yipetas and nice shirts and putas and everything similar, for real men to rise up and proclaim that they do not accept status quo and to take up arms if necessary and bring about necessary change. We must remember that nothing great was ever achieved without a great deal of pain and sacrifice. Santa Claus isn't going to return DR to you-you must!
MJEV.
Written by: dagtan, 1 Dec 2009 12:11 AM
From: United States
The moral of the story here is that there are two people that are really struggling at this point in time to survive and make the best of the few things they have, while a few takes as much as they can while there is time left on the political clock.
I was heart broken to see these kids in front of el nacional supermarket in Santiago every morning as I walked to the corner to get a paper during the 15 days that spent there in july.
This condition is only created as a way to divert the attention from the real problems with the Dominican government who is unmotivated and unwilling to do anything about it. Those deportations are more ceremonial than the israelis freezing theirs settlements building for 10 months. The symbolism in dominican politics have really become the real politik that was so well done by the old timers,
Remember that within the tent of dominican politics, money is what God used to be. Therefore, blaming ordinary dominicans or haitians migrants does not h
From: Botswana, La reconnaissance est une lachete'
Glomaexplorer
What I was getting at is the bigger picture in this whole sad debarcle. DR should not have to deal with such a burden. Right or wrong these people only comes to DR because they believed they will get jobs. Sadly there is a sector of your economy that benefit from this. If not best believe the DR government would have man up on this a long time ago. Sadly this is a blowback from globalization, I saw something last year in my travels I would not believed, in the Turks & cacos and Montego Bay Jamaica ,developers have been bringing in Chinese laborers to work in construction projects unstead of hiring locals. The reasons being it's cheaper and those guys work around the clock since they do not have family ties to the host country,these are poor Chinese farmers.
w
From: Botswana, La reconnaissance est une lachete'
This have cause major friction in Jamaica where the Unemploy locals showed up at on of the Spanish chain RIU Project in progress with machetes on hand. I don't have to tell you who the police sided with on this issues in the name of attracting foreign investments.
Written by: Trujillo, 1 Dec 2009 1:25 AM
From: Dominican Republic
Parents who use their children this way should be castrated and sent to prison for the rest of their lives.
Written by: Atabey, 1 Dec 2009 10:38 AM
From: United States
Part 1
PATCHUKO
Since foreigners are able to read, I doubt very much that any will be blowing up. The Mountain peaks are not on the borders and besides the goal is to do something that's relatively cheap and fast. Building a wall will take enormous resources, time and management skills. Two of which we find in utterly short supply here in DR.
On the matter of Jesuit priest Father Regino Martinez: "You don't achieve anything with this[deportation], because while the Migration authorities are repatriating the undocumented immigrants, other authorities are letting them return"
Might these other authorities include Haitians?
Some of you guys think that it's only the DR pushing these poor people to leave for greener pastures on the eastern side. I don't think it's that simple. I think that some organizations and people in Haiti see no other "solution" to the plight of their poor population than encouraging them to flee into DR, and seek whatever they can there.
Written by: Atabey, 1 Dec 2009 10:46 AM
From: United States
Part 2
Until you guys put the onus where it belongs: the Haitian leadership and its abysmal dereliction of national duty, more violence will this "policy" of exporting of the poor engender. Jesuit priest Father Regino Martinez speaks as he should from the prospective of the Church and is thus not concerned about Nation-State sovereign interests. If he wants to achieve betterment for poor Haitians, he would do far more working inside Haiti itself, and speaking some truths to power on that side of the border. Heaven known the Haitian leadership needs a little push here and there to jump-start their leadership responsibilities.
Written by: Atabey, 1 Dec 2009 10:57 AM
From: United States
ParDiamond,
Glad to see that you agree with us that having slave-labor compete with national labor does not bring out the better part of human nature. I would only wish you took it to its logical conclusion: the sending or exporting nation-state. The leadership-if one could call it that- of these failed and miserable failed states wash their hands of serving and enlightening their people. These individuals should be the focus of international scorn and investigation. The spotlight and garnishment of their ill-gotten fortunes should send shivers down their collective backbones. And I must stress that unless we focus on their dereliction of national resolve and service, little will ever change in Haiti. But sadly one thing will almost certainly increase: the risk of violence between Dominicans and Haitians.
From: United States
I always knew that josean was a closet haitian , coming here all the time talking that same tired old song . about dominicans being racist to haitians , and that dominican republic needs to focused more on education ? thats bullshyt we need to focused more on protecting the border and having enough security and military defenced to protect the country from illegal migration of haitians. josean gets his beliefs from bleeding liberals like hillary clinton and rev al sharpton who are nothing more then classless , backstabbing rats with no morals or principles. he beliaves you should let that crackwhore with aids or that gangbanging pimp have food, water , clothes and shelter.
From: United States
I always knew that josean was a closet haitian , coming here all the time talking that same tired old song . about dominicans being racist to haitians , and that dominican republic needs to focused more on education ? thats bullshyt we need to focused more on protecting the border and having enough security and military defenced to protect the country from illegal migration of haitians. josean gets his beliefs from bleeding liberals like hillary clinton and rev al sharpton who are nothing more then classless , backstabbing rats with no morals or principles. he beliaves you should let that crackwhore with aids or that gangbanging pimp have food, water , clothes and shelter.
Written by: josean, 1 Dec 2009 1:06 PM
From: United States
Your contribution is so refreshing, enlightening, constructive and adds so much to the debate!
I can see why you posted it twice!
Written by: Atabey, 1 Dec 2009 2:03 PM
From: United States
To Josean.
What about the point of Haitian dereliction of national resolve in facing and implementing a Haitian solution to their peoples plight. Or are we to accept that said dereliction is the responsibility of the Dominican people?
Written by: msjersey, 1 Dec 2009 3:22 PM
From: United States, New Jersey(Cibaeno/Los mina)
Joseano keep your kids home; oh wait, keep them begging so you can buy me ingles sin barreras for christmas.
JOYEUX NOEL........NOUVELLE ANNEE HEUREUSE....
From: United States
josean,
Your contribution is so refreshing, enlightening, constructive and adds so much to the debate!
I can see why you posted it twice well put haitian windbag now why dont you go
yea Im sure you feel you contributed alot more then I do with your superior knowledged , sinced your the expert on race relations and education for the masses. I so get the feeling that actualy bealive you make a differenced when you come to this site when you get into flame wars with everybody here and post your blogs on every little stupid story they post on haiti. the fact that you actually bealive you contributed something to this story is comical and down right embarrassing. you my friend are nothing more then a troll with the IQ of a chimp
Written by: josean, 1 Dec 2009 4:32 PM
From: United States
"bealive"
Is that the CHIMP way of spelling believe or the human way?
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo & Miami
hell
you need to understand that el haitiano josean has been discredited here as a man with a serious identity problem, you have to see the world through his eyes and understand that the man is sick, he's so ashame of his haitianhood that he's talking with sammy sosa about that cream
my sources tell me he's been also in contact with a chinese doctor that specializes in DNA transplant
go figure
Written by: Atabey, 1 Dec 2009 4:52 PM
From: United States
Josean you are evading the point. This is not about spelling lessons.
Written by: josean, 1 Dec 2009 4:56 PM
From: United States
Written by: Atabey, 1 Dec 2009 2:03 PM
From: United States
To Josean.
What about the point of Haitian dereliction of national resolve in facing and implementing a Haitian solution to their peoples plight. Or are we to accept that said dereliction is the responsibility of the Dominican people?
A,
The problem is that I think you have joined recently DT and are influenced by the comments of my Dominican brethren, who try to mask their racism and xenophobia by appearing to be ultra nationalistic patriots and labeling anyone who attempts to have a rationale, human and respectful debate: As a camouflaged Haitian, a self hating Dominican or some type of the lesser primates.
If you have read any of my prior very crude and ineloquent ramblings, you will find that I have always stated it is a BI-NATIONAL PROBLEM which requires the assistance of all the "previous" colonial powers who created it and left to both us Dominicans and Haitians to inherit it's troubles!
continued:
Written by: josean, 1 Dec 2009 4:57 PM
From: United States
I believe in defending the sovereignty of the Dominican Republic “A Capa y Espada,” but I also believe that to defend my country I don't have to denigrate people, especially those who have the least to do with the circumstances created, which force them to live a subhuman existence.
Our scorn and anger is misdirected at the general illegal Haitian immigrant who is swept up in the misgoverning of their “elected” officials and the economic opportunisms of unscrupulous Dominican entrepreneurs, when it should be directed at the Haitian and Dominican governments and their international partners in apathy and neglect, the “former” colonial powers!
Written by: josean, 1 Dec 2009 5:03 PM
From: United States
Written by: Atabey, 1 Dec 2009 4:52 PM
From: United States
Josean you are evading the point. This is not about spelling lessons.
You don't really know me yet to make that claim. I maybe wrong at times, heck maybe even all the time, but believe evading is not one of my traits!
Written by: josean, 1 Dec 2009 5:04 PM
From: United States
So A,
Keep your powder dry and don't fire until you see the whites of their eyes!
Written by: xwill7, 1 Dec 2009 5:08 PM
From: United States, Chicago
they can build a metro to run them out... lol
From: Botswana, La reconnaissance est une lachete'
@Atabey
My dear friend Haiti issues are a lot more complex than meet the eyes. I have been reading your postes for a while ,yes the Haitian elite have been nothing more than selfish pricks. How ever putting the total blame on them is simple text book theories put foward by those who simply wants to wash their hands off their complicity in the matter.
Let me give you this little example that food riot last year was not caused simple because lazy Haitian lack of productivity, it was cause my world bank and IMF policies force upon Haiti back in the early 80's. Yes we do have a lot of infighting but that have always been aggravated by outside
interferences. I was not a fan of Mr Aristide and his political party can you explain to me why The
Young Republican Arm of the US Republican Party felt the need to finance the opposition against Aristide via MR Stanley Lucas.
From: Botswana, La reconnaissance est une lachete'
Cont
a Haitian national who was later awarded a post in Afghanistan. Can you explain to me why Guy Phillip had his training base in your country with full knowledge of your military. I can go back for the last 50years of Haitian affairs with examples like this.However I must said I see a gleamer of hope for my country, this weekend I recieved my issue of the Economist, they had a list of the 10 worst countries on the planet in term of corruption,developments, mortality rates and so one. To my greatest suprised with all our problems Haiti was not on that list.
Written by: msjersey, 1 Dec 2009 6:10 PM
From: United States, New Jersey(Cibaeno/Los mina)
Patdemon, Haiti is not on that list because they bring loads of pregnant haitians to give birth i D.R.
They have free healthcare at our own expence.
Written by: josean, 1 Dec 2009 6:43 PM
From: United States
Missy,
I hate to tell you but in Inglés Sin Barreras that would be “expense!”
Written by: dagtan, 1 Dec 2009 10:39 PM
From: United States
People all I can say is that a person has the right to love his country and still be able to love justice.
The problem with the haitian migration in DR is not a problem that has been created or maintained by ordinary Dominicans or Haitians, but a problem that was indeed created by the devastation of colonialism and the continuation of many of those practices among our people. Both people are the victim of small elite i both countries which main goal is to continue to accumulate as much wealth as possible, while the masses are really struggling.
I really do not understand what we get or some of you get from dehumanizing and marginalizing the haitian population in the DR and even in their country. the damage is clear, therefore, we should concentrate on dealing with the effects of such damage, which BTW is the responsibility of both nations. The DR as the receiving nation has the duty of stopping entry, while haiti as the sending country has the duty to stop exit.
Many who o
Written by: dagtan, 1 Dec 2009 10:48 PM
From: United States
often employ their energy and letters attempting to make the haitians look like lesser humans are only achieving embarassment for themselves and the country which they so freely scream to the world that they love dearly. If you are disturbed by what is going in the DR right now, state your point in respect of both people, since the ones that will only continue to suffer are those that do not have the control and will never have it.
Those of us who belong to the Dominican Diaspora know this very well, but at times chose to give a blind eye to the realities on the ground in Hispaniola. Therefore, it will be productive if we all concentrate on the real culprits in creating this massive problem which two third world countries do not have the know how on how to go about solving it.
The EU and the U.S. must become fully involved in the matter before a few agitators like some here, bring this thing up to a boiling point and unnecessary bloodshed take place.
Written by: Atabey, 2 Dec 2009 12:10 AM
From: United States
" can you explain to me why The
Young Re Arm of the US Rep Party felt the need to finance the opposition against Aristide via MR Stanley Lucas."
I cannot explain to you why the US Young Republicans got involved in Haiti. Fighting alleged communism or whatever their pet project of the year. But whatever the reason(s) this matter is for Haitians to decide. Have you read Michel-Rolph Trouillot's work: Haiti-State Against Nation? It's a fascinating account of that troubled nation's disintegration into the abyss.
"One of the significant contradictions of the Haitian situation, according to Trouillot is that "societies on the periphery of the capitalist world economy are of necessity outward-looking, if only because they are economically dependent on capitalist centers. Yet states are inherently inward-looking (even if expansionist); they exercise primary control over a definite territory and derive their momentum from the dynamics of coercion and consent within that space" (p. 23).
Written by: Atabey, 2 Dec 2009 12:12 AM
From: United States
Part 2 In the early days of Haiti "an authoritarian labor system was more likely to lead to increased productivity in the export sector and generate local accumulation of capital. On the other hand, militarized agriculture, and even milder forms of the plantation system, conflicted with the masses' vision of freedom and thus with the fundamental principle of liberty around which the nation was built. But great as it was, this dilemma was exacerbated by the Western powers' efforts to reestablish Haiti's economic dependence" (p. 50).
Those who established the character of the Haitian state in its early years chose a system that perpetuated the country's dependence on powerful neighbors while, as Trouillot points out, it "persistently siphoned off the meager resources of the peasantry, so that this peasantry came to finance the state while having no control over it" (p. 59).
Written by: Atabey, 2 Dec 2009 12:13 AM
From: United States
Part 3Since the state "has a monopoly on force . . . the limits to the excise of state power . . . are dictated by the conditions of a state's existence, rather than by any abstract moral code" (p. 35). The function of the Haitian state, therefore, was to extract and distribute peasant surplus (p. 83), a job it performed without regard for human rights. Whatever qualms the urban elites might have had about such a system were eased by the fact that most members of these elites regarded the peasants as mindless animals in a faraway interior. Economically the consequences were disastrous, for neither rulers, merchants, nor landowners "reinvested the surplus they expropriated; there was no local accumulation of capital, either in private hands or within the state sector, and no major effort to improve the forces of production" (p. 84).
Written by: Atabey, 2 Dec 2009 12:15 AM
From: United States
part 4
About the only contacts peasants had with the state were the tax collectors and the army. The army of the early Haitian state, however, was quite different from the army that overthrew Aristide. As Trouillot points out, the old Haitian army, for all its flaws, was the army of the revolution, fighting for Haitian independence from foreign intervention. "In sharp contrast, the Haitian Garde was specifically created [by the Americans] to fight against other Haitians" (p. 106)--a role it played until 1994 when its successor was disembowel by another invasion from the United States.
Against his interpretation of the history of Haiti Trouillot, in Chapter 6 "State Against Nation," provides a masterful description of the indescribable, the regime of Francois "Papa Doc" Duvalier. Trouillot interprets the two Duvalier regimes as totalitarian along the lines of Mussolini's Italy; they were total in the sense that the state encompassed all of civil society. State violence was total.
Written by: Atabey, 2 Dec 2009 12:16 AM
From: United States
part 5
As Trouillot points out, "Duvalierism distinguished itself by a new kind of state violence, one that systematically violated the codes governing the use of force by the state" touching innocents, relatives of offenders, and women (p. 166). The equation of the chief executive with the nation was total; "those who held power enjoyed it only on the basis of a direct link to the chief of state" (p. 171). Totalitarianism was also exhibited in various forms of polarization, such as the widening of the gap between the rich and the poor (p. 182) and spatial polarization with Port-au-Prince housing 20 percent of the population but consuming 80 percent of the state expenditures (p. 183). And all the while the Duvaliers always played the anticommunist game to gain U.S. support for their crippling policies (pp. 202-203).
Written by: Atabey, 2 Dec 2009 12:17 AM
From: United States
Part 6
The most economically disastrous relationship between the United States and Haiti, the offshore assembly industry that culminated in the deleterious policies of the Caribbean Basin Initiative, began during the senior Duvalier regime and "accentuated economic and spatial polarization without benefiting the nation" (p. 210). These assembly plants took people out of food production and didn't create any additional indigenous industry. Almost all of the raw material, investment capital, machinery, and management for the assembly plants were shipped in from the United States. Almost all the products of the assembly plants, such as baseballs, textiles, electronic parts, and shoes, were shipped out to the U.S. market. And as Trouillot states, "Haiti's trade deficit rose from $12.4 million in 1970 to . . . $183 million in 1980" (p. 211).
Written by: Atabey, 2 Dec 2009 12:21 AM
From: United States
Part 7
In explaining the beginnings of the uprising against Jean-Claude Duvalier in the provincial town of Gonaives Trouillot writes, "Haitians had for long placed the responsibility for their poverty on the dictatorship. Yet while some peasants could fall back on household production of a few garden crops . . . the mushrooming lumpen of the towns, freshly born of that peasantry, had lost both their gardens and their sense of political isolation" (p. 217). Nevertheless, as Trouillot further explains, "What Haitians witnessed on February 7, 1986, was not the disorderly escape of an 'entire leadership' pushed out by popular pressure . . . but a transmission of power, orchestrated with absolute order--albeit against the background of a popular uprising" (p. 225).
Written by: Atabey, 2 Dec 2009 12:23 AM
From: United States
Part 8
The United States was very much involved in easing Duvalier out of power; it had always had difficulties dealing with the Duvaliers; the random terrors of the senior Duvalier had been an international embarrassment, and nobody quite understood the slow-witted junior Duvalier. A militarily enforced discipline beneath the facade of a democracy--which to the U.S. government means the election of an acceptable person--was much preferable to the rapid turnover of the inefficient if not incompetent ministers and bureaucrats of Jean-Claude's administration.
The military regimes that came into power after the departure of the junior Duvalier, indeed, initially enjoyed the friendship of the United States as well as generous military aid. The United States, however, wasn't quite prepared for the viciousness of the U.S.-trained Haitian officers.
Written by: Atabey, 2 Dec 2009 12:24 AM
From: United States
Part 9
According to Trouillot, "By the end of its first year in office the CNG [i.e., the military government], generously helped by the U.S. taxpayers' money, had openly gunned down more civilians than Jean-Claude Duvalier's government had done in fifteen years" (p. 222). By May 1993 UN envoy Dante Caputo stated, "The Haitian people are living under the most ferocious repression in their entire history." Nor, of course, was the United States at all prepared for the future appearance of a populist priest as resident.
In an epilogue Trouillot writes, "Though Haitian activists willingly acknowledge the need to redistribute the country's resources more equitably, most are reluctant to face the complex problems created by declining agricultural productivity" (p. 229). According to Trouillot, the challenge to Haiti is to create institutional channels through which the peasantry can participate in the reconciliation of the state with the nation (p. 230)."
Written by: Atabey, 2 Dec 2009 12:34 AM
From: United States
"Those who established the character of the Haitian state in its early years chose a system that perpetuated the country's dependence on powerful neighbors while, as Trouillot points out, it "persistently siphoned off the meager resources of the peasantry, so that this peasantry came to finance the state while having no control over it" (p. 59). "
No Dominicans involved here PatDiamond. The set-up was pure Haitian in creation. Deal with it because no one is going to toll the line for Haiti. You either stand-up and man-up as they say, or you remain shackled to the chains of ignorance and blame calling.
From: Botswana, La reconnaissance est une lachete'
@atabey
I will def look it up very interesting book. My question to you is this did you actually read the book or just skim through it and pick the points that supported the views express by your PolySi professor. It's only fair to presume by your writing you are a young man still in school. If you understood the writing you will also see how outsider interferences have help created such a mess. Example the creation of the new Haitian army, the support of the Duvalier regime by Washington simply because he played the anti Castro role. The disastrous IMF & World Bank policies force upon Haiti in the early 80's, which help destroy local production. All these things at the time played well to the US interest but have serious blowback effect for those that have to live under those policies.
From: Dominican Republic, Cabarete
Written by: Atabey, 2 Dec 2009 11:17 AM
From: United States
PatDiamond,
I read this book when it first came out and would have to say that Trouillot is an excellent historian of Haitian descent. Again, you insist on not looking at the core issue, the very establishment of the relationship between State and Nation was predicated on a flawed and ultimately self-negating model. In essence, the model advanced a fleecing and cannibalism of Haiti's resources. This model was perpetuated by Haitians for Haitians! No foreigner had a hand in implementing this devastating model on the Haitian people. The fact that foreigners would take advantage of the Haitian model to gain their self-interest is just reality working its self across the world and life in general.
Again, until you and your country people put the onus of the problem on those directly responsible for its creation-THE HAITIAN LEADERSHIP-little will change in Haiti. And cross-border violence and misunderstanding will increase as the situation further deteriorates in Haiti.
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo & Miami
ATABEY
Do me a favor and stop educating this afro-lambones, you'll never win, no matter how well you debunk and open to view their repetitive arguments, in the end after you intellectually disabled them they will retort to bring the race card, call you names and degrade dominican women, which will eventually get them banned from DT only to see them back recycling the same arguments under another handle.
That is why i advocate a unilateral solution to this carnivorous assault that is the uncontrolable haitian migration to DR, we need to start looking at our own so called political and military leaders and demand action, do what other countries have done, sealing the border and mass deportation is the only way to deal with this problem right now. There is no need to debate with these people, they have failed for too long and there is no proof they will ever change their backward ways
no hay alguien mas ciego que el que no quiere ver
Written by: Atabey, 2 Dec 2009 1:55 PM
From: United States
old_school_trinitario,
I'm new to the forum and still have some energy to burn. I truly do not hate any Haitian out of hand, and especially those poor souls who are the salt of the earth. But I sense that even among some Dominicans there are conflicting notions of sovereignty and clearly an uneasiness in addressing this cardinal issue affecting the DR. Yes, it's difficult to say to poor people look to your leaders for answers and not solely your neighbors. I've stated in this forum that the DR should accept some Haitians living in its territory and grant them status as citizens, after a waiting period and conditions are met, as is done in all modern nations. The institutionalization and modernization of migrant/immigration issues needs to be addressed firmly and honestly by both sides of the border. My issue stems from those who wish to view this as "evil DR doing poor Haitians in" garbage. Basta ya! It's high time the Haitians take charge of the colossal mess.
Written by: Atabey, 2 Dec 2009 2:14 PM
From: United States
PatDiamond,
We live in the world as is, not the world of our choice. Nations also live in the real world and not in another or imagined world. As people we need to take stock of the issues and problems facing our existence, because seldom will we find someone to bail us out on a continue basis. Yes, the world is full of unbalanced and unfair practices. But at some point people and nations have to come to a certain and fundamental break with those practices have caused their plight. No one can come to bat for them; they have to do it and repeat the effort until the objectives and goals are cemented, and the process continues. Set-backs will occur as life has its probabilities, and efforts will go astray from time to time, but the momentum should clearly dictate some movement toward correction of deficits. For all its problems with corruption and mismanagement we can see some positive flow in DR. Even Josean, a fierce critic of all malfeasance would agree that DR has moved
Written by: Atabey, 2 Dec 2009 2:27 PM
From: United States
in somewhat of a positive direction over the last twenty years. Yes, serious problems remain and education is one of the most pressing issues to be resolved. But still, movement in a positive sense has allowed the the people of the DR to believe in the possibility of a brighter future for them and their off-spring. Sadly, this is not the case for our neighbors to the west. There the plight of the average Haitian is devoid of positive expectation. What's to be done?
My point remains crystal clear: Until Haitians resolve their own internal affairs and present to the outside world a cogent and reasonable model for betterment, the road toward the abyss will continue. My great worry is if the current debate over Global Warming proves right, and massive dislocations occur, what will happen along the borders? History tells us that hungry and desperate people never stop to see what side of the road or border they are in, as long as their hunger and desperate status are resolved.
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo & Miami
Atabey
you're a great dominican and better human been, your statements are proof of that
you have gained my respect my brother and i wish our nation have more dominicans like you.
Written by: Atabey, 2 Dec 2009 9:04 PM
From: United States
old_school_trinitario,
I found this interesting non-Dominican source: Spread it around if you want.
Jean H Charles MSW, JD is Executive Director of AINDOH Inc a non profit organization dedicated to building a kinder and gentle Caribbean zone for all. He can be reached at: jeanhcharles@aol.
By Jean H Charles:
I just spent a full week in the Dominican Republic visiting the cities of Santiago and Santo Domingo as well as the towns and the villages in between. The experience was as pleasant as my trip to Trinidad and Tobago during Carnival time. Compared to Haiti, which is still living in the stone age, the Dominican Republic is moving at full speed into modernity and towards development.
To start with the activities at the borders, you will notice a convoy of 10 to 12 long haul trucks filled with merchandise going towards Haiti while, on the other side, Haiti has only the hordes of the poor and the destitute to offer to the Dominican Republic.
Written by: Atabey, 2 Dec 2009 9:05 PM
From: United States
Part 2
Its army is camped at the entrance of each town to check on the visitors. I have counted 19 military-security posts before entering Santo Domingo.
I have visited the Dominican Republic to check de visu the allegations of institutionalized mistreatment of Haitian people. I have found them baseless, I have spoken with enough Haitian church officials, Haitian university students, migrants on the street and ordinary Dominicans to confirm the fact that mob rule that strikes from times to times in isolated villages in the Dominican Republic has nothing to do with the policies of the government nor the attitude of the ordinary Dominican towards the Haitian people. A significant number of Haitian intellectuals have recently written a letter to President Leonel Fernandez objecting to the complicity of the State in incubating the de facto status of discrimination against the Haitian people in Dominican Republic.
Written by: Atabey, 2 Dec 2009 9:06 PM
From: United States
Part 3
President Fernandez took offense to the letter, considering the fact he has taken the case of Haiti to all the international instances he has spoken to. The Haitian migrants and the Haitian students in the Dominican Republic have credited President Fernandez for a culture of detente towards them in the Dominican Republic.
I am sticking my neck out not to defend the Dominican Republic but to call on the Haitian intellectuals to form (with me) a coalition to render Haiti more hospitable to its own people so they will not have to endure the humiliation of being an unwanted belonger not only in the Dominican Republic but also in the Bahamas and the Turks and Caicos.
The arrogance of power, the determination to maintain the status quo in Haiti are clothed with the hypocrisy of self pity so as to confuse the issues and not taking steps to bring about needed change. The migrant advocates are now rewarded with ministerial positions.
Written by: Atabey, 2 Dec 2009 9:09 PM
From: United States
Part 4
The revolving doors between fake advocates and policy decision makers blur the picture so the solution to the problem will never be found. The island of Ayiti made up of the Republic of Haiti and the Dominican Republic is destined to become a powerful engine for the Caribbean once it is in full gear. The Dominican Republic is now using Haiti as its dumping ground because there is not a minimum of governance in Haiti to create an engaging partnership that would be equally profitable to both countries. The politics of eating the seeds in Haiti is the praxis of the government.
Putting my shoes into those of the Dominicans, I find it hard for the Haitian people (with their culture of exclusion) to absorb, without an uproar, more than a million Dominicans into their territory, with a majority of them, with no basic education, no grooming and requesting essential services such as health care, housing and social services.
Written by: Atabey, 2 Dec 2009 9:11 PM
From: United States
part 5
In the meantime, I have found in Santiago and in Santo Domingo most of the amenities that the ordinary Haitian person craves for: a vibrant night life, supermarkets filled with produce and goods at price competitive with the American stores, clean streets, a government that cares and works for its people.
The Dominican Republic is not without its faults, too many children begging on the street, too many prostitutes engaging in the first business of the world with no fear and no curb from the patrolling police squad. The small towns have too many unemployed persons spending the day waiting for a magic savior. The DR could use more micro PPP (public-private partnership) to engage its creative population.
Yet, I have found enough seedling of good will in the DR to believe once a responsible government is installed in Haiti, the wings of the bird named Ayiti will facilitate the flying of an eagle that chose the firmament as its final destination.
Nov 14, 2009
Written by: Atabey, 2 Dec 2009 9:22 PM
From: United States
PatDiamond, TanBellaMami, PATCHUKO, et al.
Note his "I am sticking my neck out not to defend the Dominican Republic but to call on the Haitian intellectuals to form (with me) a coalition to render Haiti more hospitable to its own people so they will not have to endure the humiliation of being an unwanted belonger not only in the Dominican Republic but also in the Bahamas and the Turks and Caicos.
The arrogance of power, the determination to maintain the status quo in Haiti are clothed with the hypocrisy of self pity so as to confuse the issues and not taking steps to bring about needed change. The migrant advocates are now rewarded with ministerial positions.
If a Dominican says these things, it's called racism. Get on with developing your country, get tough with your leaders and demand changes BY HAITIANS FOR HAITIANS.
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo & Miami
atabey
tremenda galleta para los afro-lambones
and thanks for this article, i will do my best to translate it and post it in clave digital que es el diario mas pro-haitiano en RD
From: United States
I don't know what the hxll Domincan authorities are waiting for to put up a Chinese Wall between the two countries with only two points of entry, one in the north and another one in the south. Problem solved. And Americans cant say Shxt because they have done the same and better yet treat Dominicans like complete bags of shxt. That's right.
Written by: josean, 6 Dec 2009 10:10 PM
From: United States
Ask the Chinese how well that wall worked?
From: United States
hey its brasileros taking candy from Gouletcito!!!!!! LOLOLOLOLOL
Written by: marsenb, 14 Dec 2009 7:14 PM
From: Haiti
dominicains are making it a big deals the fact that haitians are crossing the border to go to santo domingo and the surrounding ares.but they have to understand that they became to occupy the land freely thereafter the haitian government relieved them from slavery and gave them the right to freedom.remember the transition was very smooth and both sides were happy to see how they could meke such a thing happen.there never have been a conflict between the governments.haiti always remain loyal to the dominican government and the people the dominicain republic.but some dominicains still don't understand why and how the island was divided.they don't read and dig -in history.
Written by: marsenb, 14 Dec 2009 7:25 PM
From: Haiti
page 2
haiti that was dominican republic and haiti itself were one country leaded by one government.we took our independance in january 1st 1804.we , the haitians occupied the whole island for 25 years. haiti was the richest island in the carribean until the english,the americans,the spanish from spain came to the country and stole everything.they took everything with them and left the island in a stage of poverty.government of both sides of the island tried very hard to keep up with the living standard but corruptions left them empty ended.i read e few comments leftby some dominicains. i deeply feel sorry for them.they don't do their homework and came here talking trash about haitians.so my question to them: " did you ever think about why both sides of the island ever come to a confrontation?" just think about it! my grandmother was dominican and my grandfather was haitian.i was born and raised in haiti but spent most of my vacation in santo domingo. i would be so stupid to hate u
Written by: marsenb, 14 Dec 2009 7:26 PM
From: Haiti
anyways, i love you all.just stay focused!
Written by: riosm, 14 Dec 2009 9:28 PM
From: United States
Marsenb,
I respect your input, but.......One has to ask why cross the border illegally into the DR in the first place ?
Thank the French and foreign powers for dismantling slavery which in turn backed the Haitian Gov. which in turn sought to control the whole Island with a puppet Government, now that the Haitians are free as you claim, how free are they ?
The division you Haitians call transition, we Dominicans call Freedom.
As I said before the problem lies with the HAITIAN GOVERNMENT not the Haitian People.
As I close, one thought.........how did Haiti become the Nation that it is today ? find the answer and you'll find the SOLUTION.
Take care
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This should be of more outrage than anything else, as w/o fixing our political problems, the migration, development, and human rights issues are unlikely to be addressed.
It appears that dominican "men" from Paterson, New Jersey are very trigger happy!
And get a third party, like the UN to escort the illegal Haitians out of the country to avoid conflict.
Good idea!
However you will have to convice the wealthy Dominicans to let go of their "slave" labor first!
"sh*thole you call haiti,"
Now who has the DIRTY MOUTH again?
Josean, most Dominican from P town
are ex U.S. Military,,,yes Gun can fix problem and create new one, but with these situation,,a Gun would fix more problem that what it would create,,,,shoot them,,,after the word get around they stop crossing
telemeco
that's the only tonge they speak in haiti. gun powder and led my friend
why you think you haven't see more smoke columns coming out of the sierra de bahouruco lately.
all it took was 4 burn bodies to stop the illegal tree chopping in the area.
http://news.newamericamedia.org/n....=ecceaa4f44dbf1a693a3ff825f236d81
I know a ton of Dominicans outside of SD and Santiago that would work what ever open job they could find
that kid is working for the parent or pimp that has him out there begging... the money goes to the adult. Simple, you put 10 to 20 kids to beg everyday and it creates good change for the adult
If that's the case what is the problem?
x,
What I mean is, if Dominicans are willing to do the work Haitian's are doing there wouldn't be a market for illegal labor!
the problem josean is that you need to keep your kids under control, for a change how about keeping them in haiti with their mothers instead of selling them as slaves to beg in DR.
you can lie all you want about you been dominican, but you're not fooling anyone here
all you have to do to stop people from attacking you from every angle is to say the truth, that you're a haitian that are fully ashame of your country and most rather pose as a dominican, but when people here start ripping haitians for been savages you feel bad about your compadres and try to somehow criticizes dominicans without revealing your true ethnic background.
is as simple as that, i personally will stop calling you maggot and afro-lambon or any other piropo i had used before.
just come out of the closet, i dare you
Dominicans like you who are so full of hatred and ignorance that it makes us look like uncivilized barbarians with a useless METRO, who need a whole lot EDUCATION!
the illegals have brought the wages down too low for dominicans to want the work. kick them out and you will see the wage increase. as long as illegals are in the country the wages will be low
In my humble opinion, you really need to put that "disco rayado" of the lack of education being the main problem of this country, specially after reading the following article:
NO TODO ES EDUCACION
Escrito por: Orlando Gómez Torres (ogomez@redpolitica.com)
El consenso generalizado del problema de mayor relevancia en República Dominicana es la falta de educación. Todos lo repiten como loros, desde los más intelectuales hasta el analfabeto, el problema dominicano es la abstracta y subjetiva figura de la falta de educación.
(cont...)
Y es abstracto porque es imposible definir como la falta de educación incide directamente en que RD tenga corrupción o exactamente qué tipo de educación es la que hace falta. Porque ciertamente, no saber como sacar un logaritmo neperiano no va a ser la razón por la cual yo crucé el semáforo en rojo, igual que no tendrá ninguna incidencia no haber tomado clases de moral y cívica en la decisión de alguien en si vender o no drogas.
Decir que el problema es la falta de educación es la forma de moda de echarle la responsabilidad a otro, por lo general al Estado, sin atreverse a asumirla como propia. Lo que a su vez significa no hacer nada para cambiar asuntos cuya solución puede ser más concreta, es dejar a lo subjetivo la resolución de algo claro y objetivo.
(cont...)
¿Quiénes son los que venden drogas en República Dominicana? ¿Quiénes son los que usan al Estado para enriquecerse? O ¿quienés son los que se benefician manteniendo una burocracia corrupta? ¿Quiénes son los que tratan de meter mercancías de contrabando? ¿Quiénes son los que hacen un desastre en el tránsito de nuestro país? ¿Quiénes son los que abusan de consumidores abultando el costo de los servicios mediocres que venden? ¿Quiénes son los que violentan toda norma de urbanidad concebida? ¿Quiénes son los que se comen un semáforo en rojo o manejan de forma temeraria?
Desde el más bruto, hasta el profesional con maestría en Harvard en República Dominicana comete una o varias de las cosas que cité arriba. Entonces ¿de qué educación estamos hablando?
(cont...)
Igual ocurre en los países desarrollados. Hay muchas personas educadas y hay muchísimos igual con una falta de educación formal crónica. Lo curioso es que a pesar de ello, esos países no andan cayéndose a pedazos. Entonces podemos llegar a la conclusión de que la fiebre no está en las sábanas.
No es por menospreciar el enorme beneficio de una educación de calidad disponible para toda la ciudadanía, pero ya es tiempo de que se deje de estar usando una excusa abstracta para no atacar problemas bien claros y concretos.
¿Están las ciudades, calles y avenidas del país en capacidad de mantener un tránsito fluido y organizado para el parque vehicular actual? ¿Es necesaria tanta burocracia Estatal, tantas funciones y tantos impuestos para manejar un país de 10 millones de habitantes?
(cont...)
¿Puede haber interés en hacer una vida como empleado cuando el salario promedio no se ajusta siquiera al costo de la vida promedio de una familia clase media? ¿Hay empleo alguno en la calle que asegure un sueldo lo suficientemente atractivo que pueda alejar a los jóvenes del negocio de la droga?
Son muchas preguntas… si tengo suerte, nadie las responderá diciendo “con educación”. El crudo a más de 76 dólares el barril Por BARRY HATTON/The Associated Press Los precios del crudo para entrega a término subieron el miércoles por encima de los 76 dólares el barril ante la debilidad del dólar y a la espera de las estadísticas sobre los inventarios del combustible en Estados Unidos. El crudo de referencia para entrega en enero bajó 39 centavos a 76,41 dólares por barril en la cotización electrónica de la bolsa de la materias primas de Nueva York al mediar la jornada en Europa.
(cont...)
El contrato bajó 1,54 dólares para cerrar la víspera a 76,02 dólares. El crudo ha bajado un 7% desde que llegó a 82 dólares por barril el mes pasado ante las pruebas de que la recuperación económica en Estados Unidos será tímida. Con anterioridad en Asia, el precio llegó a caer a 75,78 dólares, El euro fue cotizado a 1,5041 dólares, de 1,4975 la víspera en Nueva York. La libra esterlina subió 1,6692 dólares de 1,6593 en Nueva York, mientras que el dólar bajó a 87,72 yen de 88,56 la víspera. En otras cotizaciones de la bolsa Nymex, el combustible de calefacción subía 0,97 de centavo a 1,96 dólares por galón (3,79 litros). La gasolina para entrega en diciembre ganaba 0,5 de centavo a 1,94 dólares por galón. En el mercado ICE de Londres, la mezcla Brent del Mar del Norte para entrega en enero subía 56 centavos a 77,02 dólares. ——— El periodista de The Associated Press Alex Kennedy contribuyó en Singapur a este artículo.
This is the problem right here starting with this NGO baldoria23. Because of people like this one branding us racist and xenophobia just to promote their agenda is because our country is in such state with the illegal haitians. Blame the problem on something else right baldoria.
Let's leave our country to them what else to do if there is nothing we can do. There is no Balaguer anymore murio Balaguer se murio el racista que siempre estaba en contra de los Haitianos decian los derechos humano. A que extremo hemos llegado. I hope the pacifist who made Balaguer's life imposible to govern feel happy and complete nowdays. Let the traitor die with no country as Nuñe de Caceres.
Change your name to Old Fool.
Please show me a civilized society or a developed society that has achieved those statuses without universal education, just one, please!
the illegals have brought the wages down too low for dominicans to want the work. kick them out and you will see the wage increase. as long as illegals are in the country the wages will be low"
X,
You are now qualifying your original statement.
You said " I know a ton of Dominicans outside of SD and Santiago that would work what ever open job they could find"
I emphasize your words "THAT WOULD WORK “WHATEVER JOB” THEY COULD FIND;" Therefore, your statement implies that our Dominican brothers are as desperate as the illegal Haitians. If that is the case there should be no problem in accepting the (I agree) suppressed wages!
my friend it just that you always ripping our government without any rights to do so.
I mean if you're haitian perredeista take it easy pena gomez is dead, and vargas is not the president yet;
You need Inglés Sin Barreras!
Then you must despise LIE-onel Fernandez and the PLD because in addition to mismanaging the border they are selling the country to the highest BRIBER and are doing more damage to the republic than illegal Haitians could ever do. As least the Haitian grow the food you eat and probably built the house or apt you live in!
On the other hand LIE-onel Fernandez and his criminal enterprise steal from the poor to give to themselves and their rich friends!
Migration deports, others let back in
On Saturday, Migration inspectors were surprised to see most of the people they arrested and deported on Thursday going about their tasks as if nothing had happened. One of the inspectors who took part in the roundup said that he felt helpless when he saw that some of the Haitians he had arrested on Thursday were on the streets of Santiago. "I can't believe that they are already back in the country so quickly...incredible... we are working for nothing," he told Hoy reporters.
He said that the same people who had been arrested and deported were at their usual spots begging for money on the city's main intersections.
In Santiago's Cienfuegos barrio where the roundup took place, residents complained about the Haitians' return.
Continued:
Source DR1
It appears our military are also beggars!
Now that this article has gotten everybody's attention why can't we turn all this negative energy into solutions without nip picking and personal attacks on each other.
The problem the way I see it is the responsibility of both the Dominican and Haitian Governments not the People they are suppose to govern.
Where's VivaCuba when ya need um ! not to attack anybody myself, but........it's just nice to get some insight from another angle that's all, after all the U.S has nothing to do with the Haitian problem.......or do they ? LOL
We are tired of whole situation and excuses. US should feel same way and be mad as hell and send all the illegals back, too, be they Dominican, Mexican or anything else. All these wrongs need to be righted, and the sooner the better.
It is high time for Dominican patriotic fervor to take precedence over bachata and yipetas and nice shirts and putas and everything similar, for real men to rise up and proclaim that they do not accept status quo and to take up arms if necessary and bring about necessary change. We must remember that nothing great was ever achieved without a great deal of pain and sacrifice. Santa Claus isn't going to return DR to you-you must!
MJEV.
I was heart broken to see these kids in front of el nacional supermarket in Santiago every morning as I walked to the corner to get a paper during the 15 days that spent there in july.
This condition is only created as a way to divert the attention from the real problems with the Dominican government who is unmotivated and unwilling to do anything about it. Those deportations are more ceremonial than the israelis freezing theirs settlements building for 10 months. The symbolism in dominican politics have really become the real politik that was so well done by the old timers,
Remember that within the tent of dominican politics, money is what God used to be. Therefore, blaming ordinary dominicans or haitians migrants does not h
What I was getting at is the bigger picture in this whole sad debarcle. DR should not have to deal with such a burden. Right or wrong these people only comes to DR because they believed they will get jobs. Sadly there is a sector of your economy that benefit from this. If not best believe the DR government would have man up on this a long time ago. Sadly this is a blowback from globalization, I saw something last year in my travels I would not believed, in the Turks & cacos and Montego Bay Jamaica ,developers have been bringing in Chinese laborers to work in construction projects unstead of hiring locals. The reasons being it's cheaper and those guys work around the clock since they do not have family ties to the host country,these are poor Chinese farmers.
w
PATCHUKO
Since foreigners are able to read, I doubt very much that any will be blowing up. The Mountain peaks are not on the borders and besides the goal is to do something that's relatively cheap and fast. Building a wall will take enormous resources, time and management skills. Two of which we find in utterly short supply here in DR.
On the matter of Jesuit priest Father Regino Martinez: "You don't achieve anything with this[deportation], because while the Migration authorities are repatriating the undocumented immigrants, other authorities are letting them return"
Might these other authorities include Haitians?
Some of you guys think that it's only the DR pushing these poor people to leave for greener pastures on the eastern side. I don't think it's that simple. I think that some organizations and people in Haiti see no other "solution" to the plight of their poor population than encouraging them to flee into DR, and seek whatever they can there.
Until you guys put the onus where it belongs: the Haitian leadership and its abysmal dereliction of national duty, more violence will this "policy" of exporting of the poor engender. Jesuit priest Father Regino Martinez speaks as he should from the prospective of the Church and is thus not concerned about Nation-State sovereign interests. If he wants to achieve betterment for poor Haitians, he would do far more working inside Haiti itself, and speaking some truths to power on that side of the border. Heaven known the Haitian leadership needs a little push here and there to jump-start their leadership responsibilities.
Glad to see that you agree with us that having slave-labor compete with national labor does not bring out the better part of human nature. I would only wish you took it to its logical conclusion: the sending or exporting nation-state. The leadership-if one could call it that- of these failed and miserable failed states wash their hands of serving and enlightening their people. These individuals should be the focus of international scorn and investigation. The spotlight and garnishment of their ill-gotten fortunes should send shivers down their collective backbones. And I must stress that unless we focus on their dereliction of national resolve and service, little will ever change in Haiti. But sadly one thing will almost certainly increase: the risk of violence between Dominicans and Haitians.
I can see why you posted it twice!
What about the point of Haitian dereliction of national resolve in facing and implementing a Haitian solution to their peoples plight. Or are we to accept that said dereliction is the responsibility of the Dominican people?
JOYEUX NOEL........NOUVELLE ANNEE HEUREUSE....
Your contribution is so refreshing, enlightening, constructive and adds so much to the debate!
I can see why you posted it twice well put haitian windbag now why dont you go
yea Im sure you feel you contributed alot more then I do with your superior knowledged , sinced your the expert on race relations and education for the masses. I so get the feeling that actualy bealive you make a differenced when you come to this site when you get into flame wars with everybody here and post your blogs on every little stupid story they post on haiti. the fact that you actually bealive you contributed something to this story is comical and down right embarrassing. you my friend are nothing more then a troll with the IQ of a chimp
Is that the CHIMP way of spelling believe or the human way?
hell
you need to understand that el haitiano josean has been discredited here as a man with a serious identity problem, you have to see the world through his eyes and understand that the man is sick, he's so ashame of his haitianhood that he's talking with sammy sosa about that cream
my sources tell me he's been also in contact with a chinese doctor that specializes in DNA transplant
go figure
From: United States
To Josean.
What about the point of Haitian dereliction of national resolve in facing and implementing a Haitian solution to their peoples plight. Or are we to accept that said dereliction is the responsibility of the Dominican people?
A,
The problem is that I think you have joined recently DT and are influenced by the comments of my Dominican brethren, who try to mask their racism and xenophobia by appearing to be ultra nationalistic patriots and labeling anyone who attempts to have a rationale, human and respectful debate: As a camouflaged Haitian, a self hating Dominican or some type of the lesser primates.
If you have read any of my prior very crude and ineloquent ramblings, you will find that I have always stated it is a BI-NATIONAL PROBLEM which requires the assistance of all the "previous" colonial powers who created it and left to both us Dominicans and Haitians to inherit it's troubles!
continued:
Our scorn and anger is misdirected at the general illegal Haitian immigrant who is swept up in the misgoverning of their “elected” officials and the economic opportunisms of unscrupulous Dominican entrepreneurs, when it should be directed at the Haitian and Dominican governments and their international partners in apathy and neglect, the “former” colonial powers!
From: United States
Josean you are evading the point. This is not about spelling lessons.
You don't really know me yet to make that claim. I maybe wrong at times, heck maybe even all the time, but believe evading is not one of my traits!
Keep your powder dry and don't fire until you see the whites of their eyes!
My dear friend Haiti issues are a lot more complex than meet the eyes. I have been reading your postes for a while ,yes the Haitian elite have been nothing more than selfish pricks. How ever putting the total blame on them is simple text book theories put foward by those who simply wants to wash their hands off their complicity in the matter.
Let me give you this little example that food riot last year was not caused simple because lazy Haitian lack of productivity, it was cause my world bank and IMF policies force upon Haiti back in the early 80's. Yes we do have a lot of infighting but that have always been aggravated by outside
interferences. I was not a fan of Mr Aristide and his political party can you explain to me why The
Young Republican Arm of the US Republican Party felt the need to finance the opposition against Aristide via MR Stanley Lucas.
a Haitian national who was later awarded a post in Afghanistan. Can you explain to me why Guy Phillip had his training base in your country with full knowledge of your military. I can go back for the last 50years of Haitian affairs with examples like this.However I must said I see a gleamer of hope for my country, this weekend I recieved my issue of the Economist, they had a list of the 10 worst countries on the planet in term of corruption,developments, mortality rates and so one. To my greatest suprised with all our problems Haiti was not on that list.
They have free healthcare at our own expence.
I hate to tell you but in Inglés Sin Barreras that would be “expense!”
The problem with the haitian migration in DR is not a problem that has been created or maintained by ordinary Dominicans or Haitians, but a problem that was indeed created by the devastation of colonialism and the continuation of many of those practices among our people. Both people are the victim of small elite i both countries which main goal is to continue to accumulate as much wealth as possible, while the masses are really struggling.
I really do not understand what we get or some of you get from dehumanizing and marginalizing the haitian population in the DR and even in their country. the damage is clear, therefore, we should concentrate on dealing with the effects of such damage, which BTW is the responsibility of both nations. The DR as the receiving nation has the duty of stopping entry, while haiti as the sending country has the duty to stop exit.
Many who o
Those of us who belong to the Dominican Diaspora know this very well, but at times chose to give a blind eye to the realities on the ground in Hispaniola. Therefore, it will be productive if we all concentrate on the real culprits in creating this massive problem which two third world countries do not have the know how on how to go about solving it.
The EU and the U.S. must become fully involved in the matter before a few agitators like some here, bring this thing up to a boiling point and unnecessary bloodshed take place.
Young Re Arm of the US Rep Party felt the need to finance the opposition against Aristide via MR Stanley Lucas."
I cannot explain to you why the US Young Republicans got involved in Haiti. Fighting alleged communism or whatever their pet project of the year. But whatever the reason(s) this matter is for Haitians to decide. Have you read Michel-Rolph Trouillot's work: Haiti-State Against Nation? It's a fascinating account of that troubled nation's disintegration into the abyss.
"One of the significant contradictions of the Haitian situation, according to Trouillot is that "societies on the periphery of the capitalist world economy are of necessity outward-looking, if only because they are economically dependent on capitalist centers. Yet states are inherently inward-looking (even if expansionist); they exercise primary control over a definite territory and derive their momentum from the dynamics of coercion and consent within that space" (p. 23).
Those who established the character of the Haitian state in its early years chose a system that perpetuated the country's dependence on powerful neighbors while, as Trouillot points out, it "persistently siphoned off the meager resources of the peasantry, so that this peasantry came to finance the state while having no control over it" (p. 59).
About the only contacts peasants had with the state were the tax collectors and the army. The army of the early Haitian state, however, was quite different from the army that overthrew Aristide. As Trouillot points out, the old Haitian army, for all its flaws, was the army of the revolution, fighting for Haitian independence from foreign intervention. "In sharp contrast, the Haitian Garde was specifically created [by the Americans] to fight against other Haitians" (p. 106)--a role it played until 1994 when its successor was disembowel by another invasion from the United States.
Against his interpretation of the history of Haiti Trouillot, in Chapter 6 "State Against Nation," provides a masterful description of the indescribable, the regime of Francois "Papa Doc" Duvalier. Trouillot interprets the two Duvalier regimes as totalitarian along the lines of Mussolini's Italy; they were total in the sense that the state encompassed all of civil society. State violence was total.
As Trouillot points out, "Duvalierism distinguished itself by a new kind of state violence, one that systematically violated the codes governing the use of force by the state" touching innocents, relatives of offenders, and women (p. 166). The equation of the chief executive with the nation was total; "those who held power enjoyed it only on the basis of a direct link to the chief of state" (p. 171). Totalitarianism was also exhibited in various forms of polarization, such as the widening of the gap between the rich and the poor (p. 182) and spatial polarization with Port-au-Prince housing 20 percent of the population but consuming 80 percent of the state expenditures (p. 183). And all the while the Duvaliers always played the anticommunist game to gain U.S. support for their crippling policies (pp. 202-203).
The most economically disastrous relationship between the United States and Haiti, the offshore assembly industry that culminated in the deleterious policies of the Caribbean Basin Initiative, began during the senior Duvalier regime and "accentuated economic and spatial polarization without benefiting the nation" (p. 210). These assembly plants took people out of food production and didn't create any additional indigenous industry. Almost all of the raw material, investment capital, machinery, and management for the assembly plants were shipped in from the United States. Almost all the products of the assembly plants, such as baseballs, textiles, electronic parts, and shoes, were shipped out to the U.S. market. And as Trouillot states, "Haiti's trade deficit rose from $12.4 million in 1970 to . . . $183 million in 1980" (p. 211).
In explaining the beginnings of the uprising against Jean-Claude Duvalier in the provincial town of Gonaives Trouillot writes, "Haitians had for long placed the responsibility for their poverty on the dictatorship. Yet while some peasants could fall back on household production of a few garden crops . . . the mushrooming lumpen of the towns, freshly born of that peasantry, had lost both their gardens and their sense of political isolation" (p. 217). Nevertheless, as Trouillot further explains, "What Haitians witnessed on February 7, 1986, was not the disorderly escape of an 'entire leadership' pushed out by popular pressure . . . but a transmission of power, orchestrated with absolute order--albeit against the background of a popular uprising" (p. 225).
The United States was very much involved in easing Duvalier out of power; it had always had difficulties dealing with the Duvaliers; the random terrors of the senior Duvalier had been an international embarrassment, and nobody quite understood the slow-witted junior Duvalier. A militarily enforced discipline beneath the facade of a democracy--which to the U.S. government means the election of an acceptable person--was much preferable to the rapid turnover of the inefficient if not incompetent ministers and bureaucrats of Jean-Claude's administration.
The military regimes that came into power after the departure of the junior Duvalier, indeed, initially enjoyed the friendship of the United States as well as generous military aid. The United States, however, wasn't quite prepared for the viciousness of the U.S.-trained Haitian officers.
According to Trouillot, "By the end of its first year in office the CNG [i.e., the military government], generously helped by the U.S. taxpayers' money, had openly gunned down more civilians than Jean-Claude Duvalier's government had done in fifteen years" (p. 222). By May 1993 UN envoy Dante Caputo stated, "The Haitian people are living under the most ferocious repression in their entire history." Nor, of course, was the United States at all prepared for the future appearance of a populist priest as resident.
In an epilogue Trouillot writes, "Though Haitian activists willingly acknowledge the need to redistribute the country's resources more equitably, most are reluctant to face the complex problems created by declining agricultural productivity" (p. 229). According to Trouillot, the challenge to Haiti is to create institutional channels through which the peasantry can participate in the reconciliation of the state with the nation (p. 230)."
No Dominicans involved here PatDiamond. The set-up was pure Haitian in creation. Deal with it because no one is going to toll the line for Haiti. You either stand-up and man-up as they say, or you remain shackled to the chains of ignorance and blame calling.
I will def look it up very interesting book. My question to you is this did you actually read the book or just skim through it and pick the points that supported the views express by your PolySi professor. It's only fair to presume by your writing you are a young man still in school. If you understood the writing you will also see how outsider interferences have help created such a mess. Example the creation of the new Haitian army, the support of the Duvalier regime by Washington simply because he played the anti Castro role. The disastrous IMF & World Bank policies force upon Haiti in the early 80's, which help destroy local production. All these things at the time played well to the US interest but have serious blowback effect for those that have to live under those policies.
Dissecting Possibilities: Options Of Change.
These are some things I feel some of you might find interesting:
I would like to see dialogues, not debates.
http://www.everythinghaitian.com/....gDetail.aspx?BID=613&PID=1513
I want to see discussions, not disputes.
http://www.everythinghaitian.com/....gDetail.aspx?BID=613&PID=1522
I want to see diversity, not division.
http://www.everythinghaitian.com/....gDetail.aspx?BID=613&PID=1517
I want to see dissertation, not dilatation.
http://www.everythinghaitian.com/....gDetail.aspx?BID=613&PID=1523
YOUR OPINIONS, COMMENTS AND PLEASE KEEP IT CIVIL.
I read this book when it first came out and would have to say that Trouillot is an excellent historian of Haitian descent. Again, you insist on not looking at the core issue, the very establishment of the relationship between State and Nation was predicated on a flawed and ultimately self-negating model. In essence, the model advanced a fleecing and cannibalism of Haiti's resources. This model was perpetuated by Haitians for Haitians! No foreigner had a hand in implementing this devastating model on the Haitian people. The fact that foreigners would take advantage of the Haitian model to gain their self-interest is just reality working its self across the world and life in general.
Again, until you and your country people put the onus of the problem on those directly responsible for its creation-THE HAITIAN LEADERSHIP-little will change in Haiti. And cross-border violence and misunderstanding will increase as the situation further deteriorates in Haiti.
Do me a favor and stop educating this afro-lambones, you'll never win, no matter how well you debunk and open to view their repetitive arguments, in the end after you intellectually disabled them they will retort to bring the race card, call you names and degrade dominican women, which will eventually get them banned from DT only to see them back recycling the same arguments under another handle.
That is why i advocate a unilateral solution to this carnivorous assault that is the uncontrolable haitian migration to DR, we need to start looking at our own so called political and military leaders and demand action, do what other countries have done, sealing the border and mass deportation is the only way to deal with this problem right now. There is no need to debate with these people, they have failed for too long and there is no proof they will ever change their backward ways
no hay alguien mas ciego que el que no quiere ver
I'm new to the forum and still have some energy to burn. I truly do not hate any Haitian out of hand, and especially those poor souls who are the salt of the earth. But I sense that even among some Dominicans there are conflicting notions of sovereignty and clearly an uneasiness in addressing this cardinal issue affecting the DR. Yes, it's difficult to say to poor people look to your leaders for answers and not solely your neighbors. I've stated in this forum that the DR should accept some Haitians living in its territory and grant them status as citizens, after a waiting period and conditions are met, as is done in all modern nations. The institutionalization and modernization of migrant/immigration issues needs to be addressed firmly and honestly by both sides of the border. My issue stems from those who wish to view this as "evil DR doing poor Haitians in" garbage. Basta ya! It's high time the Haitians take charge of the colossal mess.
We live in the world as is, not the world of our choice. Nations also live in the real world and not in another or imagined world. As people we need to take stock of the issues and problems facing our existence, because seldom will we find someone to bail us out on a continue basis. Yes, the world is full of unbalanced and unfair practices. But at some point people and nations have to come to a certain and fundamental break with those practices have caused their plight. No one can come to bat for them; they have to do it and repeat the effort until the objectives and goals are cemented, and the process continues. Set-backs will occur as life has its probabilities, and efforts will go astray from time to time, but the momentum should clearly dictate some movement toward correction of deficits. For all its problems with corruption and mismanagement we can see some positive flow in DR. Even Josean, a fierce critic of all malfeasance would agree that DR has moved
My point remains crystal clear: Until Haitians resolve their own internal affairs and present to the outside world a cogent and reasonable model for betterment, the road toward the abyss will continue. My great worry is if the current debate over Global Warming proves right, and massive dislocations occur, what will happen along the borders? History tells us that hungry and desperate people never stop to see what side of the road or border they are in, as long as their hunger and desperate status are resolved.
Atabey
you're a great dominican and better human been, your statements are proof of that
you have gained my respect my brother and i wish our nation have more dominicans like you.
I found this interesting non-Dominican source: Spread it around if you want.
Jean H Charles MSW, JD is Executive Director of AINDOH Inc a non profit organization dedicated to building a kinder and gentle Caribbean zone for all. He can be reached at: jeanhcharles@aol.
By Jean H Charles:
I just spent a full week in the Dominican Republic visiting the cities of Santiago and Santo Domingo as well as the towns and the villages in between. The experience was as pleasant as my trip to Trinidad and Tobago during Carnival time. Compared to Haiti, which is still living in the stone age, the Dominican Republic is moving at full speed into modernity and towards development.
To start with the activities at the borders, you will notice a convoy of 10 to 12 long haul trucks filled with merchandise going towards Haiti while, on the other side, Haiti has only the hordes of the poor and the destitute to offer to the Dominican Republic.
Its army is camped at the entrance of each town to check on the visitors. I have counted 19 military-security posts before entering Santo Domingo.
I have visited the Dominican Republic to check de visu the allegations of institutionalized mistreatment of Haitian people. I have found them baseless, I have spoken with enough Haitian church officials, Haitian university students, migrants on the street and ordinary Dominicans to confirm the fact that mob rule that strikes from times to times in isolated villages in the Dominican Republic has nothing to do with the policies of the government nor the attitude of the ordinary Dominican towards the Haitian people. A significant number of Haitian intellectuals have recently written a letter to President Leonel Fernandez objecting to the complicity of the State in incubating the de facto status of discrimination against the Haitian people in Dominican Republic.
President Fernandez took offense to the letter, considering the fact he has taken the case of Haiti to all the international instances he has spoken to. The Haitian migrants and the Haitian students in the Dominican Republic have credited President Fernandez for a culture of detente towards them in the Dominican Republic.
I am sticking my neck out not to defend the Dominican Republic but to call on the Haitian intellectuals to form (with me) a coalition to render Haiti more hospitable to its own people so they will not have to endure the humiliation of being an unwanted belonger not only in the Dominican Republic but also in the Bahamas and the Turks and Caicos.
The arrogance of power, the determination to maintain the status quo in Haiti are clothed with the hypocrisy of self pity so as to confuse the issues and not taking steps to bring about needed change. The migrant advocates are now rewarded with ministerial positions.
The revolving doors between fake advocates and policy decision makers blur the picture so the solution to the problem will never be found. The island of Ayiti made up of the Republic of Haiti and the Dominican Republic is destined to become a powerful engine for the Caribbean once it is in full gear. The Dominican Republic is now using Haiti as its dumping ground because there is not a minimum of governance in Haiti to create an engaging partnership that would be equally profitable to both countries. The politics of eating the seeds in Haiti is the praxis of the government.
Putting my shoes into those of the Dominicans, I find it hard for the Haitian people (with their culture of exclusion) to absorb, without an uproar, more than a million Dominicans into their territory, with a majority of them, with no basic education, no grooming and requesting essential services such as health care, housing and social services.
In the meantime, I have found in Santiago and in Santo Domingo most of the amenities that the ordinary Haitian person craves for: a vibrant night life, supermarkets filled with produce and goods at price competitive with the American stores, clean streets, a government that cares and works for its people.
The Dominican Republic is not without its faults, too many children begging on the street, too many prostitutes engaging in the first business of the world with no fear and no curb from the patrolling police squad. The small towns have too many unemployed persons spending the day waiting for a magic savior. The DR could use more micro PPP (public-private partnership) to engage its creative population.
Yet, I have found enough seedling of good will in the DR to believe once a responsible government is installed in Haiti, the wings of the bird named Ayiti will facilitate the flying of an eagle that chose the firmament as its final destination.
Nov 14, 2009
Note his "I am sticking my neck out not to defend the Dominican Republic but to call on the Haitian intellectuals to form (with me) a coalition to render Haiti more hospitable to its own people so they will not have to endure the humiliation of being an unwanted belonger not only in the Dominican Republic but also in the Bahamas and the Turks and Caicos.
The arrogance of power, the determination to maintain the status quo in Haiti are clothed with the hypocrisy of self pity so as to confuse the issues and not taking steps to bring about needed change. The migrant advocates are now rewarded with ministerial positions.
If a Dominican says these things, it's called racism. Get on with developing your country, get tough with your leaders and demand changes BY HAITIANS FOR HAITIANS.
atabey
tremenda galleta para los afro-lambones
and thanks for this article, i will do my best to translate it and post it in clave digital que es el diario mas pro-haitiano en RD
haiti that was dominican republic and haiti itself were one country leaded by one government.we took our independance in january 1st 1804.we , the haitians occupied the whole island for 25 years. haiti was the richest island in the carribean until the english,the americans,the spanish from spain came to the country and stole everything.they took everything with them and left the island in a stage of poverty.government of both sides of the island tried very hard to keep up with the living standard but corruptions left them empty ended.i read e few comments leftby some dominicains. i deeply feel sorry for them.they don't do their homework and came here talking trash about haitians.so my question to them: " did you ever think about why both sides of the island ever come to a confrontation?" just think about it! my grandmother was dominican and my grandfather was haitian.i was born and raised in haiti but spent most of my vacation in santo domingo. i would be so stupid to hate u
I respect your input, but.......One has to ask why cross the border illegally into the DR in the first place ?
Thank the French and foreign powers for dismantling slavery which in turn backed the Haitian Gov. which in turn sought to control the whole Island with a puppet Government, now that the Haitians are free as you claim, how free are they ?
The division you Haitians call transition, we Dominicans call Freedom.
As I said before the problem lies with the HAITIAN GOVERNMENT not the Haitian People.
As I close, one thought.........how did Haiti become the Nation that it is today ? find the answer and you'll find the SOLUTION.
Take care