Santiago de Chile.- Venezuelan
President Hugo Chavez's remarks about former Spanish prime minister Jose Maria Aznar have sparked a row between Chavez and Spain's king Juan Carlos.
At the Ibero-American summit in Chile, Chavez called Aznar a 'true fascist'.
Spanish Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero responded to
the comment saying Aznar 'was democratically elected by the Spanish
people'.
Chavez's remark sparked an angry reaction from Spain's King Juan Carlos, who leaned forward and said 'why don't you shut up?'
Chavez also responded to the king's rebuke and said, "I do not
offend by telling the truth." He further criticized the US and Europe
accusing them of supporting a failed coup against him in 2002.
Spain's king stormed out of the conference as Nicaraguan President Daniel Ortega stepped up to support Chavez.
The 17th Ibero-American summit, in which Latin American,
Portuguese, Spanish and Andorran leaders took part, drew to a close on
Saturday. The theme of the summit was 'social cohesion', but the
leaders also held bilateral meetings on energy issues.
From: NYC
I'am not into politics, left, right, middle, purple, red what ever, but I absolutely agree 1000 % with the King on his comment, and actions. Finally another country, gave this guy some of his own bad medicine.
From: New York
Bravo, for The Kings and Prsidente Zapatero,is their obligation to defend a Presient who was elected democrately.
With out doing wrong things and manipulated the votes.
From: Bogota,N,J, USA
IT WAS ABOUT TIME SOME ONE HAD TO TELL HIM TO SHUT UP ! SPECIALLY ON SOME ISSUE THAT DOES NOT CONCERN
CHAVEZ. AM ALSO GLAD THAT SPAIN STOOD BEHIND ITS KING.
I LOVE THE PART WHERE ZAPATERO HAD REQUESTED RESPECT FOR ALL HEAD OF STATE INCLUDING CHAVEZ AND IN ORDER TO GET RESPECT HE MUST ALSO RESPECT OTHER.
I ALSO LIKED THE PART WHERE ZAPATERO SAID THAT AZNAR WAS DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED BY THE SPANISH PEOPLE. FURTHER MORE DANIEL ORTEGA SHOWED HIS TRUE COLOR AND WHERE HE STANDS,STILLTO THE LEFT.
Written by: mike l, 12 Nov 2007 7:31 PM
From: pop
i have no idea why , in the year 2007, countries still have kings.and i would appreciate it if mr rancier would tell me what the heck is wrong with being to the political left. i can say why i am a fellow leftist; because the laissez faire capitalist system is a bankrupt, anachronistic way of organising society which only benefits people like kings.
Written by: mike l, 14 Nov 2007 1:06 PM
From: pop
while i still have some spleen left to vent on this topic, let me make a few observations. in 2004, just before leonel took office, the peso was 50-something to one. had not hugo chavez agreed to sell petroleum below market price to the dr, with a moratorium on repayment, we would all be using the peso for toilet paper , what with oil at 96 per barrel. because ,like hippo had to, leonel would have to pay the monthly oil bill in dollars. the exchange rate is arrived at by auction, so just
Written by: mike l, 14 Nov 2007 1:12 PM
From: pop
imagine the repercussions upon an already decimated economy.yet folks cheer a king for telling chavez to shut up; if anyone has the interest of the poor and disadvantaged of latin america at heart, it sure aint no king of spain! the prime minister of spain might have been chosen in an election, but nobody elected the king. he is the king by an accident of reproduction, and, in my way of thinking, occupies a post that is not relevant in todays world. he is a guy that was born on third base and
Written by: mike l, 14 Nov 2007 1:17 PM
From: pop
contd,
thinks he hit a triple. if i have to direct my respect to anyone, it will be to those who earn their place in society, not those who just happen to be born in high places. after all the glorious things spain has done for the western world, its benevolent massacres of native peoples, its introduction of the trans atlantic slave trade,
and just the general disarray in which it left latin america, i would think that it is the king who should wire his jaws shut!
From: new york city
Well, I see that some people still see a "king" as one appointed by God himself. What anachronistic, stupid rubbish. At least Chavez, a soldier - whether you like him or not - was elected by his people. The same can not be said for Juan Carlos - who was "selected" Fransisco Franco - a fascist if ever there was one. Who was more rude? The soldier or the king? And all this crap about the king "protecting the honor of Spain" - I didn't know that Spain's honor was so fragile. Hey, Spain- its 2007.
From: new york city
continued....
In my old country, Greece, we got rid of our "king" - who just happens to be Juan Carlos's brother in law. The Spanish should do the same, but of course they won't since they view the House of Bourbon as part of their "glorious past".
Finally, I can only wonder if the king would tell Chavez to shut up in a dark, deserted street. I hardly think so.
Written by: mike l, 15 Nov 2007 10:44 AM
From: pop
hey ANASTASIOS, i cannot resist the temptation to respond to a guy like you.i thought i would be left out in front of the train with my comments, but i see that i have a soldier beside me. it perplexes me that in a country such as this ,which suffered so mightily during spanish colonization, people here would support the king of spain, or any king for that matter, in preference to someone who has helped their country. talk about ungrateful! how in the name of heaven can people in the year 2007
Written by: mike l, 15 Nov 2007 10:49 AM
From: pop
still bear allegiance to kings. those positions are as relevent to society today as the penny farthing bicycle; they are anachronistic curiosities, for circus purposes only. and we know the king would never face off with chavez one-on-one. we all know about the legendary bravery and heart of spain. every four years, as the football world cup approaches, spain has the best team on paper, loaded with talent. but they never make it past the qualifying rounds, because they lack heart. they get
Written by: mike l, 15 Nov 2007 10:53 AM
From: pop
beaten by teams with far less talent, but whose players have the courage to fight for 90 minutes. if the spanish teams do not have a sizeable lead by the 60th minute, you know they are going to lose, because they lose heart and throw in the towel. it happens every four years, just as it used to happen when their mighty armadas and armies got trounced by lesser opposition. hope you dont get mad at me, but GO PANATHANIAKOS!
Written by: M Fiel, 15 Nov 2007 12:34 PM
From: New York
Although Chavez may be overly out spoken to the extent of being uncouth he like Azner was freely elected by the Venezuelan people. Chaves is not lying by calling Azner a fascist he belonged to the fascist party while a university student. However the main reason for calling Azner fascist is that the former Spanish leader along with the United States schemed a coup that ousted the Venezuelan President from power; only to later be reinstated by the insistence of the Venezuelan people.
Written by: Emmanuel, 15 Nov 2007 2:44 PM
From: New York
If any should be told to "shut up" it would be the spanish goverment...Like so many other European countries have done for centuries they have rape, pillaged, enslaved, killed, committed genocide, all in the name of their kings. At least Chavez fights for the poor people of the world, and doesn't exploit them to get rich
From: Florida
I just have a few questions:
What has the king ever done, but hit the sperm lottery? Why was he there in the first place?
Somebody should tell the king to “shut up",he has no business interfering in a international forum.
Zapatero looked very embarrassed at the “kings” actions, as well he should be.He reminds me of Hipolito back in the day, and his outrageous sound bites.In this day and age why we still have a kings is beyond me.
Written by: Escott, 10 Dec 2007 5:48 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Cabrera and Sosua a 2 days a month for payday
Mike needs some lessons on Dominican History.
The pesos going from 53 to the 20's had not a thing to do with Chavez and happened before he tried to buy the support of the DR and his push to the left.
From: United States
ok Escott, explain it to me ,if you will, what would be the economic repercussions on the dr economy if they had to pay the oil bill at 99 dollars per barrel, with no moratorium on the debt. they would have to find the foreign exchange ,in dollars, at the end of every month. surely you can make a temporary revaluation of the currency, but it is unsustainable in the long run , unless there are no burdensome recurrent needs for foreign exchange.
Written by: Escott, 10 Dec 2007 8:42 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Cabrera and Sosua a 2 days a month for payday
Dear Mr Dreadlocks,
Why NOTHING would happen.
We pay for our gas at the pumps and the pumps pay the distributor for their gas with that money and then they have the money to import the product. Instead the Government takes the money and pays the bills on time payments and puts it into the Metro or it just goes up in smoke like much of the money that comes into this country.
This country indebts itself to line the pockets of people here. Anywhere else it is called thievery but not here because it is just called a way of life.
If a country can't afford to pay for oil they shouldn't be undertaking a METRO that benefits a small part of the country while they steal the money from Health and Education and I guess Oil Loans to pay the way.
Perhaps the government wouldn't decide that all the employees need 100k Jeepetas to drive around in? Perhaps NO METRO? Perhaps a lot of things?
Years ago the cost of living was much lower here than it is now.
From: United States
Mr Escott, i have no argument with your assessment of the thievery masquerading as administration.the united nations subcommittee on human development enumerates the dominican republic as the worlds 14th worst mismanaged economy. when you think of all the economic disasters of africa and the near east, that is a stellar achievement if you ask me! money passes through these guys like drunken sailors. but the fact remains, with petrocaribe we are saving, at current prices, 36,000.000 usd per month. that is 432,000,000 per year. any way you slice it ,thats a lot of money. and remember that not all the crude oil is refined for private passenger vehicles; it is used for energy generation,among other things. expensive energy makes for expensive manufactured goods. expensive diesel fuel makes for higher transportation cost of all products which have to be moved to markets. there are also several petrol derivatives used in manufacture, so the effects would be devastating.
Written by: Escott, 11 Dec 2007 12:09 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Cabrera and Sosua a 2 days a month for payday
Dear Mr Dreadlocks,
We also have the highest priced electric in the Hemisphere. I pay my electric bill also which pays for the fuel to generate it. My electric bills go up every month. Now the government does buy down the price of diesel and propane as a subsidy although it is still higher than the rest of the countries.
We are just going into more and more debt because of this and it doesn't matter if we pay 10% less because we pay way more in interest even at the reduced rate.
Manufacturing done in the free zone has had their butts kicked and they are suffering because of the inflated peso which was brought about by this "NEW" government manipulations.
It is tough here to live if you don't have a lot of money and Chavez has only indebted this country more than we were before. The kids are going to have to pay Chavez back but that want happen either so the grandkids will but that won't happen either so the great blah blah blah. Get it?
From: United States
Dear Mr Escott,
in actuality, we are paying almost 50% less per barrel with the petrocaribe agreement, not 10%. the moratorium is for 20 years, and the interest rate is 2%. say what you will, but those terms sound like a pretty sweet deal to me
From: United States
as an aside Mr Escott, i must say i agree with you regarding the adverse effects of currency manipulation. this country was never developed to be export oriented; it is a nation of shopkeepers. in their mad rush to purchase imports at a cheaper relative price, the oligarchs inflicted an overvalued peso on the rest of us, and made exports and tourism non competitive. so the 100k jeepetas to which you alluded are all over the place, but exports, FTZ manufacturing and tourism are feeling the squeeze. it is a case of the blind leading the blind, or; in the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king!
Written by: Escott, 11 Dec 2007 10:12 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Cabrera and Sosua a 2 days a month for payday
Dear Mr Dreadlocks,
Please don't misunderstand me. We SHOULD take advantage of all that the Uncouth, foul mouthed wannabe dictator has to offer.
It didn't make the peso strong as posted by another person and that is what I posted. The peso was the strongest currency in the world against every other currency and not just the US Dollar and for what reason? Certainly not any reason you can make sense of and certainly not Chavez's attempt to influence the area by selling oil for less money at great terms which happened afterwards.
I believe it was an attempt to pay back money with stronger pesos that did the trick but what do I know? I evidently don't get the inside information that some of the others have who posted comments:)
Written by: Tanya, 11 Dec 2007 12:19 PM
From: United States
This Chavez dude is a real character, he is embarassing his country every time he opens his pipe hole, no wonder why they are leaving to the States trying to get away from such a clown. It was hard to find a Venezuelan years ago in EEUU, now, you can find them everywhere, they are the new "Marielitos" in the Miami metro area.
Written by: Escott, 11 Dec 2007 12:33 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Cabrera and Sosua a 2 days a month for payday
If you see in person what Castro has done/does to the Cuban people and Castro is the man he looks up to you will understand why people are fleeing the country.
It is hard to describe this man in a kind way no matter how I try to draw this picture.
From: United States
actually, Tanya, that is not exactly correct. this first wave of venezuelan exodus is more like the cubans who fled their homeland circa 1960. the well to do are setting up bases in miami, in case their property is expropriated. the Marielitos ,as you know, were the second wave, the degenerates that cuba flushed over to the us. at this particular point, there arent too many decrepit souls leaving venezuela for sanctuary in the usa
Written by: Tanya, 11 Dec 2007 3:49 PM
From: United States
dreadlocks, perhaps you are right although that was way before my time, if you live in the Central Florida Area you would know exactly what i am talking about . The venezuelan community has grown up tremendously in this area and the Miami area. They seem to be middle class people because they are opening businesses in the area and investing in real estate so on and so forth.
From: United States
exactly, Tanya, that is how migration works when there are severe disruptions in the social equilibrium. the wealthy and middle class flee first, because they see the erosion of whatever privilege they had coming on the horizon. actually, panama is receiving the bulk of the venezuelan millionaires, because of its proximity. a lot have also fled to spain. they are worried about the instability, crime and their possible loss of status. actually, the exodus is not as dramatic as you make it out to be; it may be a perception based in the fact that recent immigrants flock together for support systems. so you see a lot in a certain area and think many more are around. the US state department issued 71,000 resident visas to venezuelans in 2003, and 103,000 this year. it does reflect an upward trend, but not alarming from a relative standpoint.
Written by: Escott, 11 Dec 2007 4:33 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Cabrera and Sosua a 2 days a month for payday
Dear Mr Dreadlocks,
I think the wealthy and middle class leave early because they can. The poor when their rights have been taken away and they absolutely have to because there is no opportunity for them anymore. Mariel was Castro's way of taking out the trash. Why imprison them when he can ship them to the US?
Even in the Dominican Republic during the Hippo era many wealthy Dominicans were shipping their assets overseas but mainly to Miami.
From: United States
Mr Escott, i will agree that they leave because they can afford to, but they also see an elevated threat level to their group. there are wealthy venezuelans with the wherewithal to leave, but choose to stay because they do not feel threatened. they are the subpopulation which is viewed favorably by chavez, and are confident that he will not victimise them in particular. the middle classes usually comprise the intelligentsia, who tend to be the ones who constitute effective opponents; they are the college kids who lead rallies and plan civil disobedience. they are also usually literate and write articles in the newspapers denouncing the government. they see themselves as endangered species and head for the hills at the first practical opportunity.
Written by: Escott, 11 Dec 2007 6:01 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Cabrera and Sosua a 2 days a month for payday
When people ask me if I like living in the DR I answer "Of course because if I didn't I would move somewhere else". I have the choice but not everyone else does.
That is because I have a choice and why put myself in a position I don't care to be in? Threat level I don't relate to. Makes no sense to me at all if you have the means why not leave a place that isn't comfortable to/for you!
The rich have the means to do this early on in a dictatorship because they haven't locked the doors yet. Once they do it becomes difficult both to leave and to stay gone for many reasons such as changing immigration policies, changing politics in the new host countries because their experiences with these immigrants is not good.
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With out doing wrong things and manipulated the votes.
CHAVEZ. AM ALSO GLAD THAT SPAIN STOOD BEHIND ITS KING.
I LOVE THE PART WHERE ZAPATERO HAD REQUESTED RESPECT FOR ALL HEAD OF STATE INCLUDING CHAVEZ AND IN ORDER TO GET RESPECT HE MUST ALSO RESPECT OTHER.
I ALSO LIKED THE PART WHERE ZAPATERO SAID THAT AZNAR WAS DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED BY THE SPANISH PEOPLE. FURTHER MORE DANIEL ORTEGA SHOWED HIS TRUE COLOR AND WHERE HE STANDS,STILLTO THE LEFT.
thinks he hit a triple. if i have to direct my respect to anyone, it will be to those who earn their place in society, not those who just happen to be born in high places. after all the glorious things spain has done for the western world, its benevolent massacres of native peoples, its introduction of the trans atlantic slave trade,
and just the general disarray in which it left latin america, i would think that it is the king who should wire his jaws shut!
In my old country, Greece, we got rid of our "king" - who just happens to be Juan Carlos's brother in law. The Spanish should do the same, but of course they won't since they view the House of Bourbon as part of their "glorious past".
Finally, I can only wonder if the king would tell Chavez to shut up in a dark, deserted street. I hardly think so.
What has the king ever done, but hit the sperm lottery? Why was he there in the first place?
Somebody should tell the king to “shut up",he has no business interfering in a international forum.
Zapatero looked very embarrassed at the “kings” actions, as well he should be.He reminds me of Hipolito back in the day, and his outrageous sound bites.In this day and age why we still have a kings is beyond me.
The pesos going from 53 to the 20's had not a thing to do with Chavez and happened before he tried to buy the support of the DR and his push to the left.
Why NOTHING would happen.
We pay for our gas at the pumps and the pumps pay the distributor for their gas with that money and then they have the money to import the product. Instead the Government takes the money and pays the bills on time payments and puts it into the Metro or it just goes up in smoke like much of the money that comes into this country.
This country indebts itself to line the pockets of people here. Anywhere else it is called thievery but not here because it is just called a way of life.
If a country can't afford to pay for oil they shouldn't be undertaking a METRO that benefits a small part of the country while they steal the money from Health and Education and I guess Oil Loans to pay the way.
Perhaps the government wouldn't decide that all the employees need 100k Jeepetas to drive around in? Perhaps NO METRO? Perhaps a lot of things?
Years ago the cost of living was much lower here than it is now.
We also have the highest priced electric in the Hemisphere. I pay my electric bill also which pays for the fuel to generate it. My electric bills go up every month. Now the government does buy down the price of diesel and propane as a subsidy although it is still higher than the rest of the countries.
We are just going into more and more debt because of this and it doesn't matter if we pay 10% less because we pay way more in interest even at the reduced rate.
Manufacturing done in the free zone has had their butts kicked and they are suffering because of the inflated peso which was brought about by this "NEW" government manipulations.
It is tough here to live if you don't have a lot of money and Chavez has only indebted this country more than we were before. The kids are going to have to pay Chavez back but that want happen either so the grandkids will but that won't happen either so the great blah blah blah. Get it?
in actuality, we are paying almost 50% less per barrel with the petrocaribe agreement, not 10%. the moratorium is for 20 years, and the interest rate is 2%. say what you will, but those terms sound like a pretty sweet deal to me
Please don't misunderstand me. We SHOULD take advantage of all that the Uncouth, foul mouthed wannabe dictator has to offer.
It didn't make the peso strong as posted by another person and that is what I posted. The peso was the strongest currency in the world against every other currency and not just the US Dollar and for what reason? Certainly not any reason you can make sense of and certainly not Chavez's attempt to influence the area by selling oil for less money at great terms which happened afterwards.
I believe it was an attempt to pay back money with stronger pesos that did the trick but what do I know? I evidently don't get the inside information that some of the others have who posted comments:)
It is hard to describe this man in a kind way no matter how I try to draw this picture.
I think the wealthy and middle class leave early because they can. The poor when their rights have been taken away and they absolutely have to because there is no opportunity for them anymore. Mariel was Castro's way of taking out the trash. Why imprison them when he can ship them to the US?
Even in the Dominican Republic during the Hippo era many wealthy Dominicans were shipping their assets overseas but mainly to Miami.
That is because I have a choice and why put myself in a position I don't care to be in? Threat level I don't relate to. Makes no sense to me at all if you have the means why not leave a place that isn't comfortable to/for you!
The rich have the means to do this early on in a dictatorship because they haven't locked the doors yet. Once they do it becomes difficult both to leave and to stay gone for many reasons such as changing immigration policies, changing politics in the new host countries because their experiences with these immigrants is not good.