SAN JUAN, Puerto Rico.- Police superintendent Jose Figueroa Sancha on Wednesday warned that his agents aren’t authorized to demand the migratory status from Dominicans stopped for traffic violations.
Figueroa asked Dominicans victims of abuse on the part of any agent to denounce it directly to his Office or the Dominican Consulate in the island, and take their name or badge number.
The Police chief, speaking in a radio talk show together with senior Police officials, Dominican consul in Puerto Rico Maximo Taveras and other Dominican officials, said if a Dominican is stopped on a traffic violation, the police is only authorized to ask for the license and not question their migratory condition. “We want to make it clear that our agents aren’t legally authorized to ask a citizen who is stopped for breaking a traffic law or any other action, if he or she are in Puerto Rico legally or illegally.”
Figueroa’s statements come in response to complaints by Dominican taxi drivers that they are harassed by Puerto Rican police in the island’s tourist spots and in the airport Luis Muñoz Marin.
Written by: Lopez31, 7 Oct 2010 2:57 PM
From: United States
So, they rather be colony and live of welfare than fight for their independence. But, they sure have b*lls to harrass. Is anyone shocked that puerto rico is the last standing colony in the western hemisphere. I'm not!
From: Dominican Republic, Puerto Plata
With the number of npolice officers arrested yesterday, I'm sure they have other fish to fry.
Written by: telemeco, 7 Oct 2010 3:04 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Monte Plata
Colony,,,is a good living.
The United State optain Puerto Rico when it won a war again Spain 1898. it have puerto rico like a prize of war or like a Drug dealer that buy a Tiger that really have no used for it..except for show
Written by: temetito, 7 Oct 2010 4:16 PM
From: Dominican Republic
every one knows why they don't want to be independent, the US have giving then the chance to vote for independent, but they refuse, they know that the minute they are free they will loose all the help from the US, they will become the next haiti.
Written by: temetito, 7 Oct 2010 4:16 PM
From: Dominican Republic
every one knows why they don't want to be independent, the US have giving then the chance to vote for independent, but they refuse, they know that the minute they are free they will loose all the help from the US, they will become the next haiti.
From: United States
I think it's a good thing that policemen in PR be reminded that they can't harass Dominicans for papers when stopping them for traffic violations, after all they are not in the USA where the harassment of all Latinos has become a national passtime. As for your comments about the colonial status of Puerto Rico you are all ignorant of what it means to be a colony of the biggest millitary bully of our lifetime. Puerto Rico has been a colony of the USA and occupied by their millitary since the USA occupation at the end of the 1800's. There has NEVER been a legal or binding plebiscite to determine our status of choice, and yes we have and do fight back. Otherwise, why do you think they needed 13 US Millitary bases there, and why do they currently need 4 FBI offices there, as well as homeland security? Does that seem like the response to a passive people? Check out the facts of history. That's our reason. What's your excuse?
From: United States
What's our excuse? That didn't make any sense.
From: United States
These Puerto Ricans feel the exact same way Dominicans feel about Haitians. I'm so glad the reality of life in Puerto Rico for Dominicans has finally been posted for the world to see. These Dominicans are in Puerto Rico running up resources every day they are there, the crime rate in Puerto Rico is skyrocketing because of Dominican immigrants. No such problem is faced with haitians in the D.R., Haitians work, Dominicans steal, cheat and lie, and sell drugs, lots of drugs. And the police on the ground there are tired of it. And I feel their pain.
Written by: Atabey, 7 Oct 2010 6:35 PM
From: United States, NYC
That's right. Puerto Rico was a perfect paradise until the Dominicans came. No killings, no violence, no domestic violence, no spitting on sidewalks, you name it: Puerto Rico was perfect!
LOL.
Get your facts right!
Written by: Grosero, 7 Oct 2010 7:37 PM
From: United States
bang bang
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
brasilenosisback:
I enjoy the lack of personality that haitians have, the choosen nicknames don't represent their
supposedly black origin ego, also hiding behind fake identities make you look even more stupid than what You already are with the "Hommo Sappiens" behavior of yours.
Written by: Lopez31, 7 Oct 2010 7:59 PM
From: United States
abuelanegri,
You make no sense. Most of the Latino America gained independence from the biggest bully in that era, Spain. The reason they gained independence is because they really wanted to be independent and ofcourse those countries had men with cojenes. Puerto Rico does not want to be independent, they rather be test dummys for the american military than give up their welfare checks and government help. Get your facts straight. Its embarrassing to be the last standing colony in this hemisphere.
From: United States
JRRubirosa:
I'm a Brasilian-American buddy, and very proud of it. I do not need to hide behind any identity. Everytime someone says something negative about a Dominican in the forum they are labeled as Haitian. I imagine it is hard to believe anyone but Haitians dispise low class decendant of Black slaves Dominicans. But believe there are many people out there, a whole island in fact. Puerto Rico was perfect until these Dominican thugs came pouring in. I say Deport them all.
From: United States
telemetito
did you read the article or were you in a hurry to get Haiti involved ?
From: United States
Oh my God...I don't believe I'll be back into this pit of ignorance they call the comment section...Seems you have room only for the truely ignorant and prejudiced...How embarrassing!
From: United States, New York City
It makes me happy that the Puerto Rican police chief stepped up and came out in public regarding this problem that many illegal immigrants have been facing for a long time, not only in U.S. territory, but around the world. Here in New York City, Mayor Bloomberg said the same thing in public, which makes sense. If a person calls the police for help, what does that person’s immigration status has to do with the police?
Not only that, but most government officials have realized, that if the police gets involved in arresting or reporting illegal immigrants, many crimes will not be reported because the those people will be afraid of getting deported. Not only crimes that have been committed against the illegal immigrant population, but to the general population.
http://www.HogsExposed.comWritten by: Atabey, 8 Oct 2010 9:26 AM
From: United States, NYC
Muy bien dicho MrtdPhase.
Written by: temetito, 8 Oct 2010 10:46 AM
From: Dominican Republic
at lease the haitians work and are not grugs addicts like 95% of puerto ricans, they were the first slave country to become independece in america and look at this people from puerto rico, they like the easy life, just wait for that welfere check and those food stamps that they will exchance for cash to buy drugs and alchohol, and no one cant tell me otherwise, because I see it everyday.
From: United States
to brazilenosisback-If you dispise Dominicans so much, WTF are you doing in and spending so much time on a Dominican site?
From: United States, Port Washington, LI (New York)
Temetito:
Another haitian? go to a haitian website "TAKE A HIKE"
Written by: AmadaG, 8 Oct 2010 12:13 PM
From: United States
I am both Puerto Rican and Dominican. My father was Puerto Rican and my mother was from Dominican Republic. I personally do not accept any rivalry within the two Latin countries as my family is proof that we can com together in unity as Latinos. Not just as Puerto Ricans and Dominicans.
Written by: AmadaG, 8 Oct 2010 12:16 PM
From: United States
temetito.... You are so wrong by saying that 95% of Puerto Ricans are drug addicts. No one in my family uses drugs on either side of my family. Stop your stereotypical attitude and get your facts straight.
Written by: AmadaG, 8 Oct 2010 12:16 PM
From: United States
temetito.... You are so wrong by saying that 95% of Puerto Ricans are drug addicts. No one in my family uses drugs on either side of my family. Stop your stereotypical attitude and get your facts straight.
Written by: temetito, 8 Oct 2010 1:22 PM
From: Dominican Republic
amandaG, maybe u are blimd, because u dont see the truth... and JRRubirosa I'm more dominican than u're, I'm from la vega and I'm A withe dominican, I was just telling that PR without the US help will be poorer than haiti.
From: Dominican Republic, San Carlos, barrio de matatanes, aqui no invente
The Puerto Rican government have the right to enforce inmigration laws and deport any illegal dominican criminal or non criminal alike, if they want to clean the house they sure can and nobody in DR will say a word about it. In the other hand when the dominican authorities do the same (when they feel like it) every afro-lambon outthere inmediately starts bit**ing about it.
DIFAMANDO, CALUMNIANDO HABLANDO PUPU COMO EL BRAZILEROISBACK sore loser
The truth is that is you deport all illegal dominicans out of P.R they have a country to come back to, but if you sustract all illegal haitians out of D.R they soon find out that they DON'T HAVE A COUNTRY TO COME BACK TO. is a sad situation for poor haitians but they need to man up and build something, don't they get tired of people feeling sorry for them?
ademas el mesias de villa juana dijo que la economia esta muy bien, asi que manden a todos esos dominicanos en puerto rico pa tra ke eeee pa lante ke vamossss pero pal barrancon
From: United States
Are you kidding me?
Dominicans in PRico running up resources, crime has skyrocketed... because of them... what are you smoking? What makes people think PRico does not run up the resources of the American people... tax payers...
Go to any Public Assistance/Welfare office in the state of New York... and you will see who runs up US resources... like they have every right to... cause they were granted US citizenship. Everytime I ask a PRican co-worker how come you guys don't pursue your independence... you know what he answers... nothing, nothing... at all. What the hell is that? Have some balls for God sake. You have balls for fishing out illegal Dominicans on your tiny island but please... don't say it's because Dominicans have arrived and made it worst. That's total BS.
From: United States
Just one more thing...For a people that hate PR's so much, perhaps if you stay home the above article wouldn't even have to be in the news. Don't hate them cause you want to be them...Perhaps if you study hard and learn how to write you too can apply to be a US Colony. By the way, there is no such thing as a white Dominican unless it's an albino...check yourselves and avoid the "disparates"!
Written by: Lopez31, 8 Oct 2010 7:30 PM
From: United States
abuelanegri,
who would want to be a crack addicted un educated no balls having human being??? How about you check yourself. I know the truth hurts and by the looks of things its really hurting you.
Written by: Escott, 8 Oct 2010 9:31 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Cabrera and Sosua a 2 days a month for payday
This is too funny. Dominicans are racist and hate and discriminate against Haitians. Yet once another country doesn't want "ILLEGAL DOMINICANS" just like most countries don't want ILLEGALS you all cry foul. You talk from both your mouths and your arses. Really very funny.
My darling PR (I happen to love PR's as much as I love Dominicans) there really are white Dominicans or those that appear white at every level. I am sure there are PR's also that fit into that catagory. What really cracks me up is when a Black Dominican says that they are white:)
This forum is so entertaining...
Written by: temetito, 9 Oct 2010 11:11 AM
From: Dominican Republic
abuelanegri, I bet you are so proud to be puerto rican like that guy that come to my store last week and tell me that I have to work for my money while he just stays home waiting for his welfere check, jajajaaja get a life... and by the way, try to get an independence too!!!!!!!! losers
From: United States
Abuelanegri: What do you mean by "there is no such thing as a white Dominican unless it's an albino..."
No one has made the claim that Dominicans are exactly fair skin, blue eye, blond hair people. We know exactly who and what we are, a predominately multi/mixed race nation and although a minority we also have a good share of scandinavian looking Dominicans of euro-ancestry, quite similar in appearance to their Swedish or Danish counterparts.
Don't you know humorist Freddy Beras Goico, former president Joaquin Balaguer, designers Oscar de la Renta and Sully Bonnelly, actor Andres Garcia, former Miss Universe Amelia Vega,
To say there is no such thing as a white Dominican makes you just as ignorant as former vice president Dan Quayle, who could not spell a simple word as potato.
From: United States, words of wisdom from the nutcracker
these are two separate issues the fact is puerto ricans have every right to deport any illegal Dominican who is walking freely . but they don't have a right harrasing Dominican cab drivers asking them for there green cards, ala Arizona law style ! you Dominicans asking why puerto rico is.not independent ! why don't you let Puerto Rico worry about that.?
Written by: temetito, 10 Oct 2010 10:55 AM
From: Dominican Republic
we all know why you don't want independence.... and PR dont have the right to deport anyone, that right belongs to the US, remember that PR is a US territory!!!
Written by: Nehesy, 10 Oct 2010 12:07 PM
From: France, Paris
The truth is that an Haitian is seen like an african savage in the DR, and the Dominican is seen like an african savage in Puerto Rico...LOL
From: United States, words of wisdom from the nutcracker
temetido you moron what do you mean puerto Rico does not have the right to deport dominicans ? is there land there home any illegal immigrant walking in any forum land is a criminal and should be arrested, and yes american does own a part of puerto rico , thats makes puerto Rico a commonwealth and that also makes puerto ricans american citizens . you make no sense when you say Puerto ricans have no right to deport Dominicans because is american land ? Puerto ricans are Americans dummy oh by the way I'm 100 percent Dominican before you start a flame war with me !
Written by: temetito, 10 Oct 2010 9:22 PM
From: Dominican Republic
that's right, puerto ricans are americans because they belong to them, so is the whole island, I think u haven't see a map lately.... (PR) US territory!!!! losers!!!
Written by: temetito, 10 Oct 2010 9:32 PM
From: Dominican Republic
why puerto ricans feel so proud of having an american passport????.... if u could have your own, but u don't want that, because then u would replace the haitians and threre would be no more food stamps to cash it in for cash to by perico!!! one more time.... losers!!!!!!!!!!!!
Written by: shayla, 12 Oct 2010 1:21 PM
From: United States
I love this site. I am an American living in the United States thank goodness. So the dominicans treat haitians like garbage cause they think they're better than them. Then the Puerto Ricans treat the dominicans like garbage cause they think they are better than they are. LOL.. I love it. So now the dominicans are upset cause they are getting a taste of their own medicine. Well if the DR as you call it is so great then why dont the dominicans just stay there and fix it so they wouldnt have to go to puerto rico for jobs. And if everyone is so upset about welfare, dont blame the people because welfare is legal. Complain to the government if you dont like it. Being an illegal immigrant is against the law, that you can complain about.
Written by: Pepe32, 5 Nov 2010 7:37 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Shayla you are just another closet Haitian acting like an american .We don't care if PR deports Dominicans ,they have every right to do see ,likewise we have the right to deport every last Haitian illegal so if you are looking for support you will only find it from the afronazis and the Haitians on the site and if you don't like it go to EVH or some other Haitian site !
Written by: shayla, 5 Nov 2010 10:17 PM
From: United States
To Pepe..., Anyway pepe I am not a closet Haitian. I would be proud if I was a Haitian because I would know that is what God made me. God does not make mistakes. I am an american and I am not on this site looking for support. Actually you Dominicans amuse me. You look down at the Haitians and think you are superior to them. Do you know how many people look down on you and wish you would never leave your little island. People who call you poor and backwards. Personally I think people are people no matter where they live and no matter what their circumstance. And if Dominicans are so great and your country is so great then why do you always leave looking for work and whatever someone will give you. Fix your own homeland up so you can stay there. Maybe you leave cause you know like everybody else knows, your country is not a good place to live.
Written by: Pepe32, 6 Nov 2010 2:34 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Again Shayla you say AMERICAN but you hide your background although we know from experience that only Afronazis from the US and Haitians actually spend the time in a Dominican forum stating that they are unbiased when they are fully in the anti-Dominican camp.
As far as the way other people look down on many Dominicans ,it is true we have many backwards and uneducated so they are correct and every Haitian that enters DR just brings more backwardness and ignorance into MY country so please tell your president to accept 1 or 2 hundred thousand Haitians and stay the f...out of our business!
Like most ignorant people you don't know the difference between LEGAL and ILLEGAL and as far as I am concerned any Dominican who has entered another nation ILLEGALY has broken the law and can and should be deported.
Now we are a poor nation as you state yet somehow the Haitians prefer my country to their own because they are the worst country in the hemisphere and one of the worst in the world!
Written by: shayla, 6 Nov 2010 7:17 PM
From: United States
My dear Pepe,,,,I have never heard te term Afronazi and I don't know what it means. I don't know how I happend on this site but once I got here I found it hard to leave. Yes we have problems in the U.S. but I had no idea of the problems the Dominicans and Hatians were having. It is addicting to read all the comments on this site. It is also educational and somewhat amusing. It just seems like people on such a small amount of land should be able to get along better than you do.
Written by: Atabey, 6 Nov 2010 8:15 PM
From: United States, NYC
Shayla,
Read a good history about the place called La Espanola and How it got to be divided into two parts. After reading about how the Spaniards established the first European colony on the island; massive violence killed off the hundreds of thousand Tainos natives. The island remained whole until Spain forced the the western towns to disband for fear of their trading outside the Mercantilism system controlled by the mother country. This opened an opportunity for the French to establish a base on the western reaches of La Espanola. With time the French would establish the New World's most feared and exploitative system of slavery. Read how the French used mathematically actuary tables to establish the service years each new slave from Africa would render under the greatest slave machine in the New World. This incredible system of exploitation gave way as a result of the French Revolution in 1789, and led ultimately to the slaves revolting and gaining control of the colony.
Written by: Atabey, 6 Nov 2010 8:19 PM
From: United States, NYC
But this control over the French colony was only the beginning of the slaves entanglements on the island. Using the pretext of European machinations on the Spanish side of the island, the leadership of the nascent Haitian State decided to invade and take over the entire island. The 22 years of occupation by Haiti over the Dominican Republic was the foundation point for DR's fear and anti-Haitianism. The Dominican Republic NEVER invaded Haiti's capital to enlarge its hold on the island. And that's a fact. Haiti tried many times to re-take the Dominican Republic and failed! again, all these attempts produced great animosity in the historical pages and cultural development of the Dominican people. Because Haiti is a collapsed state and nation today, many people lacking historical understanding fail to take into account these historical balance.
Written by: Atabey, 6 Nov 2010 8:37 PM
From: United States, NYC
Many Dominicans were killed and taken back into Haiti as forced laborers, women were raped, their children taken back to Haiti, and males too became mere human laborers for the then powerful Haitian State. The tables were turned just before the end of the 1800s, and by the time Trujillo was in power the DR State was far more powerful than the Haitian State. The lost Dominican territory of Hinche, never returned to the DR by Haiti was lost for ever because the USA prevented the two sides to air out their differences and the US ruled the treaty of Aranjuez null and void; Trujillo then compounded the problem when he ordered his great violence along the border areas.
So there are historical reasons for the animosity between Haitians and Dominicans. As an American, USA citizen, I would suggest you read about the views that many Mexicans have concerning the 50% of Mexico lost to the nascent developing power called the USA. You think that's forgotten history? Think again!!
Written by: Pepe32, 6 Nov 2010 8:42 PM
From: Dominican Republic
I may suggest a nice 3 part series (with an offensive title) which describes Haiti's history in clear an non politically correct manner (truthful)
Besides if you know we are poor why would you expect us to take on more poor and even more backwards people?
The US ,France and Canada could do alot more by taking at least 100.000 each ,until they do I consider any comment from nationals of those nations to be offensive and ridiculous!
Written by: shayla, 7 Nov 2010 2:24 AM
From: United States
Atabey
I know I make some people on this site upset. Believe me that is not my intent. I just like to get information from the people involved. I will read more books about Haiti and DR and get as much information as possible. I don't know why this is so fascinating to me but it is. Thank you for the information that you gave me. It was eye opening.
Written by: shayla, 7 Nov 2010 2:36 AM
From: United States
I live in Los Angeles, California so yes I know how the Mexicans feel about regaining their land. At times I believe there are more Mexicans here than U.S. citizens. And Pepe you need to stop being so angry. I agree with a lot of things you say. I am not the president so I cannot bring over thousands of haitians or dominicans. I could bring one . How about you. I would not mind bringing you over and sponsoring you or whatever you want to call it. Do you want to come. My family is very open and I think it would be a good idea.
Written by: Atabey, 7 Nov 2010 9:01 AM
From: United States, NYC
.
Written by: Atabey, 7 Nov 2010 9:01 AM
From: United States, NYC
shayla,
I think or trust that when people look at the facts- ALL the facts concerning this problem, more people will come around to the idea that one truly important point for Haiti's reconstitution is a de-population program. Senegal is on record as having expressed an interest in providing Haitians with a region larger than Haiti itself for this purpose. The French, Americans should work towards making that possibility a reality. But as several economists will note, there is not one more powerful weapon against poverty than providing people with an opportunity rich environment in which to develop. Thus, providing Haitians with an opportunity to seek their dreams and aspirations in a first world nation or region is crucial for moving the Nation and State of Haiti positively forward. As constituted Haiti is not viable. My I suggest for your readings Jared Diamond's book: Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed" by Jared Diamond, Copyright © 2005.
Written by: Atabey, 7 Nov 2010 9:03 AM
From: United States, NYC
Haiti and the Dominican Republic: One Island, Two Worlds
By Jared Diamond | Wednesday, January 20, 2010
Haiti and the Dominican Republic may share one island but their histories unfolded quite differently. In “Collapse,” this week’s Globalist Bookshelf selection, Jared Diamond gives insight into the vast economic, political and ecological differences between these two Caribbean countries.
Why did the political, economic and ecological histories of these two countries — the Dominican Republic and Haiti — sharing the same island unfold so differently?
Compared to the Dominican Republic, the area of flat land good for intensive agriculture is much smaller.
Part of the answer involves environmental differences. The island of Hispaniola’s rains come mainly from the east. Hence the Dominican (eastern) part of the island receives more rain and thus supports higher rates of plant growth.
Hispaniola’s highest mountains (over 10,000 feet high) are on the Dominican side,
Written by: Atabey, 7 Nov 2010 9:04 AM
From: United States, NYC
and the rivers from those high mountains mainly flow eastwards into the Dominican side.
The Dominican side has broad valleys, plains and plateaus and much thicker soils. In particular, the Cibao Valley in the north is one of the richest agricultural areas in the world.
Environmental differences
In contrast, the Haitian side is drier because of that barrier of high mountains blocking rains from the east.
Compared to the Dominican Republic, the area of flat land good for intensive agriculture in Haiti is much smaller, as a higher percentage of Haiti’s area is mountainous. There is more limestone terrain, and the soils are thinner and less fertile and have a lower capacity for recovery.
Social and political differences
Note the paradox: The Haitian side of the island was less well endowed environmentally but developed a rich agricultural economy before the Dominican side. The explanation of this paradox is that Haiti’s burst of agricultural wealth came at the expense
Written by: Atabey, 7 Nov 2010 9:07 AM
From: United States, NYC
of its environmental capital of forests and soils.
Haiti’s elite identified strongly with France rather than with their own landscape and sought mainly to extract wealth from the peasants.
This lesson is, in effect, that an impressive-looking bank account may conceal a negative cash flow.
While those environmental differences did contribute to the different economic trajectories of the two countries, a larger part of the explanation involved social and political differences — of which there were many that eventually penalized the Haitian economy relative to the Dominican economy.
In that sense, the differing developments of the two countries were over-determined. Numerous separate factors coincided in tipping the result in the same direction.
French help
One of those social and political differences involved the accident that Haiti was a colony of rich France and became the most valuable colony in France’s overseas empire. The Dominican Republic was a colony of
Written by: Atabey, 7 Nov 2010 9:10 AM
From: United States, NYC
Spain, which by the late 1500s was neglecting Hispaniola and was in economic and political decline itself.
Hence, France was able to invest in developing intensive slave-based plantation agriculture in Haiti, which the Spanish could not or chose not to develop in their side of the island. France imported far more slaves into its colony than did Spain.
A difference in population
As a result, Haiti had a population seven times higher than its neighbor during colonial times — and it still has a somewhat larger population today, about ten million versus 8.8 million.
Haiti’s poverty forced its people to remain dependent on forest-derived charcoal from fuel, thereby accelerating the destruction of its last remaining forests.
But Haiti’s area is only slightly more than half of that of the Dominican Republic. As a result, Haiti, with a larger population and smaller area, has double the Republic’s population density.
Written by: Atabey, 7 Nov 2010 9:12 AM
From: United States, NYC
The combination of that higher population density and lower rainfall was the main factor behind the more rapid deforestation and loss of soil fertility on the Haitian side.
In addition, all of those French ships that brought slaves to Haiti returned to Europe with cargos of Haitian timber, so that Haiti’s lowlands and mid- mountain slopes had been largely stripped of timber by the mid-19th century.
Long-term investing
A second social and political factor is that the Dominican Republic — with its Spanish-speaking population of predominantly European ancestry — was both more receptive and more attractive to European immigrants and investors than was Haiti, with its Creole-speaking population composed overwhelmingly of black former slaves.
Hence, European immigration and investment were negligible and restricted by the constitution in Haiti after 1804 but eventually became important in the Dominican Republic.
Written by: Atabey, 7 Nov 2010 9:13 AM
From: United States, NYC
Using the land
Those Dominican immigrants included many middle-class businesspeople and skilled professionals who contributed to the country’s development.
Haiti’s burst of agricultural wealth came at the expense of its environmental capital of forests and soils.
The people of the Dominican Republic even chose to resume their status as a Spanish colony from 1812 to 1821, and its president chose to make his country a protectorate of Spain from 1861 to 1865.
Still another social difference contributing to the different economies is that, as a legacy of their country’s slave history and slave revolt, most Haitians owned their own land, used it to feed themselves and received no help from their government in developing cash crops for trade with overseas European countries.
The Dominican Republic, however, eventually did develop an export economy and overseas trade.
Written by: Atabey, 7 Nov 2010 9:15 AM
From: United States, NYC
Deforestation
Haiti’s elite identified strongly with France rather than with their own landscape, did not acquire land or develop commercial agriculture and sought mainly to extract wealth from the peasants.
Finally, Haiti’s problems of deforestation and poverty compared to those of the Dominican Republic have become compounded within the last 40 years.
Burned by biofuel
Because the Dominican Republic retained much forest cover and began to industrialize, the Trujillo regime initially planned, and the regimes of Balaguer and subsequent presidents constructed, dams to generate hydroelectric power. Balaguer launched a crash program to spare forest use for fuel by instead importing propane and liquefied natural gas.
But Haiti’s poverty forced its people to remain dependent on forest-derived charcoal from fuel, thereby accelerating the destruction of its last remaining forests.
From the book "Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed" by Jared Diamond, Copyright
Written by: Atabey, 7 Nov 2010 11:33 AM
From: United States, NYC
http://www.openculture.com/2010/0....ains_haitis_enduring_poverty.htmlJared Diamond Explains Haiti’s Enduring Poverty
in Current Affairs, History
Jared Diamond, the Pulitzer Prize-winning author of Guns, Germs & Steel (and Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed), offers some timely thoughts on why Haiti, once a fairly prosperous country, has sunk into enduring poverty — a condition not comparatively shared by its neighbor on the same island, the Dominican Republic. According to Diamond, Haiti’s environmental conditions offer a partial explanation. But you will also find clues in the country’s language, and in the legacy of slavery that has shaped Haiti’s economic relationship with Europe and the US. This interview — quite a good one — aired this morning in San Francisco.
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The United State optain Puerto Rico when it won a war again Spain 1898. it have puerto rico like a prize of war or like a Drug dealer that buy a Tiger that really have no used for it..except for show
LOL.
Get your facts right!
I enjoy the lack of personality that haitians have, the choosen nicknames don't represent their
supposedly black origin ego, also hiding behind fake identities make you look even more stupid than what You already are with the "Hommo Sappiens" behavior of yours.
You make no sense. Most of the Latino America gained independence from the biggest bully in that era, Spain. The reason they gained independence is because they really wanted to be independent and ofcourse those countries had men with cojenes. Puerto Rico does not want to be independent, they rather be test dummys for the american military than give up their welfare checks and government help. Get your facts straight. Its embarrassing to be the last standing colony in this hemisphere.
I'm a Brasilian-American buddy, and very proud of it. I do not need to hide behind any identity. Everytime someone says something negative about a Dominican in the forum they are labeled as Haitian. I imagine it is hard to believe anyone but Haitians dispise low class decendant of Black slaves Dominicans. But believe there are many people out there, a whole island in fact. Puerto Rico was perfect until these Dominican thugs came pouring in. I say Deport them all.
did you read the article or were you in a hurry to get Haiti involved ?
Not only that, but most government officials have realized, that if the police gets involved in arresting or reporting illegal immigrants, many crimes will not be reported because the those people will be afraid of getting deported. Not only crimes that have been committed against the illegal immigrant population, but to the general population.
http://www.HogsExposed.com
Another haitian? go to a haitian website "TAKE A HIKE"
The Puerto Rican government have the right to enforce inmigration laws and deport any illegal dominican criminal or non criminal alike, if they want to clean the house they sure can and nobody in DR will say a word about it. In the other hand when the dominican authorities do the same (when they feel like it) every afro-lambon outthere inmediately starts bit**ing about it.
DIFAMANDO, CALUMNIANDO HABLANDO PUPU COMO EL BRAZILEROISBACK sore loser
The truth is that is you deport all illegal dominicans out of P.R they have a country to come back to, but if you sustract all illegal haitians out of D.R they soon find out that they DON'T HAVE A COUNTRY TO COME BACK TO. is a sad situation for poor haitians but they need to man up and build something, don't they get tired of people feeling sorry for them?
ademas el mesias de villa juana dijo que la economia esta muy bien, asi que manden a todos esos dominicanos en puerto rico pa tra ke eeee pa lante ke vamossss pero pal barrancon
Dominicans in PRico running up resources, crime has skyrocketed... because of them... what are you smoking? What makes people think PRico does not run up the resources of the American people... tax payers...
Go to any Public Assistance/Welfare office in the state of New York... and you will see who runs up US resources... like they have every right to... cause they were granted US citizenship. Everytime I ask a PRican co-worker how come you guys don't pursue your independence... you know what he answers... nothing, nothing... at all. What the hell is that? Have some balls for God sake. You have balls for fishing out illegal Dominicans on your tiny island but please... don't say it's because Dominicans have arrived and made it worst. That's total BS.
who would want to be a crack addicted un educated no balls having human being??? How about you check yourself. I know the truth hurts and by the looks of things its really hurting you.
My darling PR (I happen to love PR's as much as I love Dominicans) there really are white Dominicans or those that appear white at every level. I am sure there are PR's also that fit into that catagory. What really cracks me up is when a Black Dominican says that they are white:)
This forum is so entertaining...
No one has made the claim that Dominicans are exactly fair skin, blue eye, blond hair people. We know exactly who and what we are, a predominately multi/mixed race nation and although a minority we also have a good share of scandinavian looking Dominicans of euro-ancestry, quite similar in appearance to their Swedish or Danish counterparts.
Don't you know humorist Freddy Beras Goico, former president Joaquin Balaguer, designers Oscar de la Renta and Sully Bonnelly, actor Andres Garcia, former Miss Universe Amelia Vega,
To say there is no such thing as a white Dominican makes you just as ignorant as former vice president Dan Quayle, who could not spell a simple word as potato.
As far as the way other people look down on many Dominicans ,it is true we have many backwards and uneducated so they are correct and every Haitian that enters DR just brings more backwardness and ignorance into MY country so please tell your president to accept 1 or 2 hundred thousand Haitians and stay the f...out of our business!
Like most ignorant people you don't know the difference between LEGAL and ILLEGAL and as far as I am concerned any Dominican who has entered another nation ILLEGALY has broken the law and can and should be deported.
Now we are a poor nation as you state yet somehow the Haitians prefer my country to their own because they are the worst country in the hemisphere and one of the worst in the world!
Read a good history about the place called La Espanola and How it got to be divided into two parts. After reading about how the Spaniards established the first European colony on the island; massive violence killed off the hundreds of thousand Tainos natives. The island remained whole until Spain forced the the western towns to disband for fear of their trading outside the Mercantilism system controlled by the mother country. This opened an opportunity for the French to establish a base on the western reaches of La Espanola. With time the French would establish the New World's most feared and exploitative system of slavery. Read how the French used mathematically actuary tables to establish the service years each new slave from Africa would render under the greatest slave machine in the New World. This incredible system of exploitation gave way as a result of the French Revolution in 1789, and led ultimately to the slaves revolting and gaining control of the colony.
So there are historical reasons for the animosity between Haitians and Dominicans. As an American, USA citizen, I would suggest you read about the views that many Mexicans have concerning the 50% of Mexico lost to the nascent developing power called the USA. You think that's forgotten history? Think again!!
Besides if you know we are poor why would you expect us to take on more poor and even more backwards people?
The US ,France and Canada could do alot more by taking at least 100.000 each ,until they do I consider any comment from nationals of those nations to be offensive and ridiculous!
I know I make some people on this site upset. Believe me that is not my intent. I just like to get information from the people involved. I will read more books about Haiti and DR and get as much information as possible. I don't know why this is so fascinating to me but it is. Thank you for the information that you gave me. It was eye opening.
I think or trust that when people look at the facts- ALL the facts concerning this problem, more people will come around to the idea that one truly important point for Haiti's reconstitution is a de-population program. Senegal is on record as having expressed an interest in providing Haitians with a region larger than Haiti itself for this purpose. The French, Americans should work towards making that possibility a reality. But as several economists will note, there is not one more powerful weapon against poverty than providing people with an opportunity rich environment in which to develop. Thus, providing Haitians with an opportunity to seek their dreams and aspirations in a first world nation or region is crucial for moving the Nation and State of Haiti positively forward. As constituted Haiti is not viable. My I suggest for your readings Jared Diamond's book: Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed" by Jared Diamond, Copyright © 2005.
By Jared Diamond | Wednesday, January 20, 2010
Haiti and the Dominican Republic may share one island but their histories unfolded quite differently. In “Collapse,” this week’s Globalist Bookshelf selection, Jared Diamond gives insight into the vast economic, political and ecological differences between these two Caribbean countries.
Why did the political, economic and ecological histories of these two countries — the Dominican Republic and Haiti — sharing the same island unfold so differently?
Compared to the Dominican Republic, the area of flat land good for intensive agriculture is much smaller.
Part of the answer involves environmental differences. The island of Hispaniola’s rains come mainly from the east. Hence the Dominican (eastern) part of the island receives more rain and thus supports higher rates of plant growth.
Hispaniola’s highest mountains (over 10,000 feet high) are on the Dominican side,
The Dominican side has broad valleys, plains and plateaus and much thicker soils. In particular, the Cibao Valley in the north is one of the richest agricultural areas in the world.
Environmental differences
In contrast, the Haitian side is drier because of that barrier of high mountains blocking rains from the east.
Compared to the Dominican Republic, the area of flat land good for intensive agriculture in Haiti is much smaller, as a higher percentage of Haiti’s area is mountainous. There is more limestone terrain, and the soils are thinner and less fertile and have a lower capacity for recovery.
Social and political differences
Note the paradox: The Haitian side of the island was less well endowed environmentally but developed a rich agricultural economy before the Dominican side. The explanation of this paradox is that Haiti’s burst of agricultural wealth came at the expense
Haiti’s elite identified strongly with France rather than with their own landscape and sought mainly to extract wealth from the peasants.
This lesson is, in effect, that an impressive-looking bank account may conceal a negative cash flow.
While those environmental differences did contribute to the different economic trajectories of the two countries, a larger part of the explanation involved social and political differences — of which there were many that eventually penalized the Haitian economy relative to the Dominican economy.
In that sense, the differing developments of the two countries were over-determined. Numerous separate factors coincided in tipping the result in the same direction.
French help
One of those social and political differences involved the accident that Haiti was a colony of rich France and became the most valuable colony in France’s overseas empire. The Dominican Republic was a colony of
Hence, France was able to invest in developing intensive slave-based plantation agriculture in Haiti, which the Spanish could not or chose not to develop in their side of the island. France imported far more slaves into its colony than did Spain.
A difference in population
As a result, Haiti had a population seven times higher than its neighbor during colonial times — and it still has a somewhat larger population today, about ten million versus 8.8 million.
Haiti’s poverty forced its people to remain dependent on forest-derived charcoal from fuel, thereby accelerating the destruction of its last remaining forests.
But Haiti’s area is only slightly more than half of that of the Dominican Republic. As a result, Haiti, with a larger population and smaller area, has double the Republic’s population density.
In addition, all of those French ships that brought slaves to Haiti returned to Europe with cargos of Haitian timber, so that Haiti’s lowlands and mid- mountain slopes had been largely stripped of timber by the mid-19th century.
Long-term investing
A second social and political factor is that the Dominican Republic — with its Spanish-speaking population of predominantly European ancestry — was both more receptive and more attractive to European immigrants and investors than was Haiti, with its Creole-speaking population composed overwhelmingly of black former slaves.
Hence, European immigration and investment were negligible and restricted by the constitution in Haiti after 1804 but eventually became important in the Dominican Republic.
Those Dominican immigrants included many middle-class businesspeople and skilled professionals who contributed to the country’s development.
Haiti’s burst of agricultural wealth came at the expense of its environmental capital of forests and soils.
The people of the Dominican Republic even chose to resume their status as a Spanish colony from 1812 to 1821, and its president chose to make his country a protectorate of Spain from 1861 to 1865.
Still another social difference contributing to the different economies is that, as a legacy of their country’s slave history and slave revolt, most Haitians owned their own land, used it to feed themselves and received no help from their government in developing cash crops for trade with overseas European countries.
The Dominican Republic, however, eventually did develop an export economy and overseas trade.
Haiti’s elite identified strongly with France rather than with their own landscape, did not acquire land or develop commercial agriculture and sought mainly to extract wealth from the peasants.
Finally, Haiti’s problems of deforestation and poverty compared to those of the Dominican Republic have become compounded within the last 40 years.
Burned by biofuel
Because the Dominican Republic retained much forest cover and began to industrialize, the Trujillo regime initially planned, and the regimes of Balaguer and subsequent presidents constructed, dams to generate hydroelectric power. Balaguer launched a crash program to spare forest use for fuel by instead importing propane and liquefied natural gas.
But Haiti’s poverty forced its people to remain dependent on forest-derived charcoal from fuel, thereby accelerating the destruction of its last remaining forests.
From the book "Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed" by Jared Diamond, Copyright
Jared Diamond Explains Haiti’s Enduring Poverty
in Current Affairs, History
Jared Diamond, the Pulitzer Prize-winning author of Guns, Germs & Steel (and Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed), offers some timely thoughts on why Haiti, once a fairly prosperous country, has sunk into enduring poverty — a condition not comparatively shared by its neighbor on the same island, the Dominican Republic. According to Diamond, Haiti’s environmental conditions offer a partial explanation. But you will also find clues in the country’s language, and in the legacy of slavery that has shaped Haiti’s economic relationship with Europe and the US. This interview — quite a good one — aired this morning in San Francisco.